Pope Examines Why Latin American Catholics Join Evangelical Churches - Page 4

Zosimus41 · #46 Jun 30, '12, 1:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by curlycool89

So explain how this definition is not "we do what we've always done"?

Part of the authority of the Catholic Church is Sacred Tradition, along with Sacred Scripture and the Papal Magisterium. It's all three.

I never said anything contrary to this. If you think I did, then point it out instead of lecturing at me.

I would appreciate it too if you wouldn't treat me like I don't know anything. A little intellectual charity goes a long way.

Good day and peace of Christ be with you

[quote=curlycool89;9467515]So explain how this definition is not "we do what we've always done"?

Im not even sure where you go this deifinition from??? In what context is this definition?

My definition taken from the catechism in context of Holy Roman Catholic Tradition

“The apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them ‘their own position of teaching authority.’” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 77).
• “This living transmission, accomplished through the Holy Spirit, is called tradition . . .” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 78).
• “Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 82).

You take tradition out of the Catholic church your left with an empty shell.

Part of the authority of the Catholic Church is Sacred Tradition, along with Sacred Scripture and the Papal Magisterium. AMEN

I never said anything contrary to this. If you think I did, then point it out instead of lecturing at me. Have you forgot? I made my post and YOUR the one that started in on me.You were the aggressor. You and I have never posted back before this. You "reported me" accusing me of ad hominem (Attacking an opponent's motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain).

Well yeah I would question your character if you dismissed the traditions of the Catholic Church just like any good Catholic should defend the faith.

Look at your #25 post "Uh", Catholicism is based on Natural Law. Is this not sarcasm?

I would appreciate it too if you wouldn't treat me like I don't know anything. A little intellectual charity goes a long way

Im the one that apologised to you so whos being unchartibale?

I wash my hands. Shake the dust from my sandels and movin on.

May God Bless you and your family.

case closed

curlycool89 · #47 Jul 1, '12, 10:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zosimus41

I never said anything contrary to this. If you think I did, then point it out instead of lecturing at me. Have you forgot? I made my post and YOUR the one that started in on me.

No, I made a point of clarification, and then you called me a protestant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by curlycool89

Look at your #25 post "Uh", Catholicism is based on Natural Law. Is this not sarcasm?

That's actually a serious philosophical remark. Much of our doctrine (NOT dogma though. Dogma usually falls from divine revelation such as Scripture or Sacred Tradition) falls from Natural Law (or put in slightly different words: what is ordered vs. disordered).

For example, the evil of contraception (the disorderedness) can be explain from natural law (it is partially scriptural, but the motive behind the scripture have to be extended through philosophy in a way that is logical, precise, and consistent). The explanation from tradition alone begs the question (as in it's a circular argument. You already have to believe it to believe it). They all work in tandem; the natural law is also part of the Church's tradition, but it is not a closed work (examination of the natural law continues in philosophy to gain greater understanding) unlike Scripture.

You'll also see that a lot of modern sexual ethics in Catholicism are philosophical because of the influence of Theology of the Body by Bl. John Paul II (whose expertise was philosophy). If you want a contrast, traditionally (in medieval times) it was taught that having marital relations when pregnant was wrong (sinful in fact), but now we say that it is not wrong at all (you could even argue that it is morally good) based on our greater understanding of biology and development of sexual ethics through philosophical examination of the Natural Law.

just came back · #48 Jul 1, '12, 5:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Abyssinia

What Catholics Can Learn From Evangelicals

http://www.stjohn17v20-21.com/evangl01.htm

1.

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But what message are evangelicals spreading? They have not the full truth of the Gospel nor the authority to preach or administer any sacraments, heck they don't believe in them anyway. The reason people leave the church, and trust me because I've been there and have come HOME, is because today's "Christian" wants to be entertained. They want to be told they are special, instead of what they truly are, a filthy sinner saved by grace, commanded to be baptized and to follow the commandments through prayer and good works.

I read an article a few months back that 83% of young evangelical Christians actively fornicate and use birth control and brag about it, claiming "we're still saved", "We're gonna get married" blah, blah, blah.

Satan has captivated millions beginning with the Protestant Reformation and their is no great revival before the Second Coming as these people will teach you. God's word speaks of apostasy before his return. 38,000 plus protestant denominations tells me something isn't right. They leave because they have "itching ears".

Thank God that I have been found again by my lord and saviour to return to his one true church on Earth.

Slinger · #49 Jul 1, '12, 7:39 pm

I don't usually visit this part of the forum but I must say on first visit this is very disturbing. I find an incredible lack of love of Jesus Christ in most of the comments here. However, I would say that the general summation of viewing these comments is probably the answer to the question posted by the OP...

damonstephens · #50 Jul 2, '12, 8:07 pm

I was protestant all my life ,I've recently converted to catholicsm. I did much research before and truly believe the Catholic Churh is The church Jesus Christ started.what other religion or even country has been around 2000 years
. That's a lot of history and were still here. I'm saying I've been to many protestant churches and say what you want ,people like them because they don't get held to any standard. They've conformed to the world. The Catholics have stayed true to what they believe in. People don't like rules. I'm glad the catholic church stands its ground. It's not all about having fun its about truth. I tell you when the fun wears of they'll come back to Rome. Please remember most protestant churches have only been around

150 years. I have found home on the way to Rome. God bless the Catholic church.

OriginalJS · #51 Jul 4, '12, 4:25 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lifesong

As a recent convert to the faith who came from a friendly Methodist church with great music I totally agree with the Holy Father. I came to the Church for the truth and have never been more at peace. But I have many Catholic friends who now worship at non demoninational churches and they are doing so for the community, praise and worship, and Bible studies which they feel the Church they attended was lacking. I feel such a call to somehow be a bridge in the divide as I am "multicultural" so to speak but as a new convert still not sure how to do that. I would love to see more opportunities for charismatic praise and worship maybe (our archdiocese has a Charismatic movement, but none of the parishes near me have anything like that) and more Bible study opportunities which our parish has been trying to get going. I don't know where to go with this and I love the reverence of the Mass itself and am a daily attender, but I think these sorts of things in addition might bring in some younger people. I am struggling to find my place with all of this but it has been on my heart and am glad to see it is on the Holy Father's as well- bring on the new evangilization!

Blessings,

Val

Totally agree. Most people want praise and worship; not doctrinal instruction. Those big, massively attended, megachurches are light on theology and heavy on activities.

OriginalJS · #52 Jul 4, '12, 10:17 am

Don't know much about Hispanics as I have never been immersed in that culture. But, I have observed differences in the social outreach of two large churches, one Catholic and one Evangelical in the Minnesota Twin Cities. The Catholics do have a social hour sometimes after Mass and for teens they had CCD classes and a Life Teen program. There were some other activities. The Evangelicals had a large bookstore and coffee bar, even open for lunch during the week, a large list of activities for all ages and the church had a stated goal of having every member involved in a small group to overcome the isolation one can feel in a large group. Everyone I spoke to that attended the church did take part in a group. When I visited that church on a couple of occasions I was greeted both before and after the service. When I attended the Catholic church all I saw was a greeter at the door who said hello. After Mass the great majority headed straight for the door and the parking lot. People do like to be recognized, particularly in these times.

Luvz2travel · #53 Jul 6, '12, 12:57 pm

Well I could have told him why. They seem to have more spirit and a better sense of community. I feel exactly ZERO of either in the Catholic church. I hate to say it but it's true.

Zosimus41 · #54 Jul 6, '12, 1:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OriginalJS

Totally agree. Most people want praise and worship; not doctrinal instruction. Those big, massively attended, megachurches are light on theology and heavy on activities.

So the million dollar question is...Is God pro heavy activities that are self fulfilling or more orthodox, reverant, solemn and dignified...same yesterday today and tomorrow?

I think the more time passes from the resurrection 2000 years and counting people become more charismatic in worshiping more do what feels good to them a pollitically correct way of worship. If it feels good do it.Live and let live idealogy.

Luvz2travel · #55 Jul 6, '12, 2:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zosimus41

So the million dollar question is...Is God pro heavy activities that are self fulfilling or more orthodox, reverant, solemn and dignified...same yesterday today and tomorrow?

I think the more time passes from the resurrection 2000 years and counting people become more charismatic in worshiping more do what feels good to them a pollitically correct way of worship. If it feels good do it.Live and let live idealogy.

I was raised by charismatic parents and with family members of many other religions so I feel I have a basis for comparison. I just think the church lacks a certain amount of spirit and community with I think people need to feel really connected.

Ecoclimber · #56 Jul 8, '12, 1:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luvz2travel

I was raised by charismatic parents and with family members of many other religions so I feel I have a basis for comparison. I just think the church lacks a certain amount of spirit and community with I think people need to feel really connected.

There's more to it than just social. It is the commandment of the Lord to love one another. How do we do that but through service. In many of the Protestant Churches that I attended over the years which was most of them, there were support groups on about every topic imaginable. We were holding each other up in prayer, instruction, teaching and fellowship. No one felt left out. We had groups for various addictions, unemployment, new moms, newlyweds, weight lost, finances, divorce recovery, sickness, grief recovery, singles, worship, acting, growing through the word, prison ministry, nursing home and elder care, healing, restoring broken marriages, anger management, depression, counseling, soup kitchens, clothing banks, etc. The Church was the center of the community. During the week we would also meet in cell groups for Bible study, fellowship and prayer. We would go out after service for breakfast and talk about the great things God was doing in our lives. Our whole perspective centered around Jesus and the community of believers. I could call up a pastor on duty and he would come out to my house at 2:00am in the morning to pray with me if needed. Bearing our burdens for one another. So yes, there is a real big difference.

There was this one pastor who came to this small town to pastor a small church. No one knew him when he came to town but when he left every one knew him. He would bring food to single moms who had no food even though they never attended his church. He would get the men in the church to fix single parents roofs, their cars or whatever needed fixing without asking anything in return. He really demonstrated the Love of God. By the time he left, there were 3,000 people in his church and everyone knew who he was. It was an old mill town with just ordinary folks.

This was the way it was in the first century churches when Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor 1Cor13:1-16
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Blessings to all

Tigg · #57 Jul 8, '12, 9:10 am

^^ Ecoclimber: I applaud you for a very good and thoughtful post.

As someone whose parish has recently shifted focus, though, I would issue a word of warning. When our new church building was dedicated a few years ago, our (new) pastor gave us a sacred place in which to pray. Over time, our worship moved from a disjointed, somewhat non-attentive one to a truly deeper mystical experience, which was coupled with homilies that were meat to the soul such as teachings on the Real Presence and the meaning of prayer, the practice of virtue, self-examination and mortification. After communion, this previously talkative, restless community became one of silence. We became a grateful people, with praise and thanksgiving taking precedence in our hearts with the realization that we had just received the greatest of gifts. Our pastor noticed the change and even commented on it one Sunday before the dismissal of Mass.

Sadly, he was re-assigned and although we now have what some describe as a dynamic, charismatic priest (who without doubt has done some great things for us,) I believe our focus has moved from Christ to community. I have asked myself why I think this - we still have Eucharistic Adoration and Benediction –we have more Masses available to us than ever before, and more confession times. In view of this, it made no sense to me that I felt something was wrong and “off” kilter - it has taken me quite a while to “see” with spiritual eyes. I now witness community coming to the pews and clamping each other on the back before genuflection – or a “hug to neighbor” in lieu of the Sign of the Cross, that there is more talking instead of prayer is certainly true. That EMHC’s and lectors are dressing more casually (and a couple of weeks ago, I could even say immodestly) is also true. That before dismissal of Mass, the celebrant often times will praise folks by name from the altar, thanking them for a special service they have done, is also taking place. (Not a good thing in my estimation – there will always be some who will be left out.)

All you say is true, but I hope our quest for more community spirit does not diminish our duty to give proper praise and worship to God first. Love of neighbor will flow from the love of Christ. And again with our new “charismatic” renewal I pray it may be one of authentic experience and an outpouring of the gifts, not an emotional response which can feed the self, and has little to do with the workings of the Spirit.

curlycool89 · #58 Jul 8, '12, 10:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zosimus41

So the million dollar question is...Is God pro heavy activities that are self fulfilling or more orthodox, reverant, solemn and dignified...same yesterday today and tomorrow?

I think the more time passes from the resurrection 2000 years and counting people become more charismatic in worshiping more do what feels good to them a pollitically correct way of worship. If it feels good do it.Live and let live idealogy.

Why do people continue to promote false dichotomies?