Could Jesus make a mistake? (A new thread) - Page 5

**Tantum ergo** · #61 May 18, '12, 5:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

I would say being a "perfect human" means being "perfectly human"- i.e. with human weaknesses, etc.

I doubt that the boy (or even the man) Jesus could do caculus of speak Chinese. I bet He got tired, hungry, maybe even frustrated (these things seem to be in the Gospel). Yet He is God. This is the MYSTERY and SACRIFICE of the Incarnation.

But none of the things you cite are mistakes, are they? It is not a mistake not to speak Chinese (especially if you aren't Chinese.). It is not a mistake to do calculus, especially if you have never been taught it. It is not a mistake to be tired, hungry, or frustrated. NONE of these things are mistakes.

Humans have limits. They aren't fasting than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive.

JDaniel · #62 May 18, '12, 5:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

Right according to WHOM?

I think you might want to take a look at something like a developmental psychology text. You are attempting to place the judgment of an adult being into the mind/development of a 2-1/2 year old child. So no, a child walking into the path of a fast riding horseman is not 'making a mistake'. According to the child's understanding he is doing something perfectly normal and 'right' --and hey, doesn't the fast moving RIDER (an adult, presumably) have some kind of responsibility?

TE:

Catholic teaching says that Jesus had three kinds of knowledge: beatific, infused and human. Only one of those three can be considered "according to the child's understanding." Only one of those knowledges was developmental. He had the other two from the beginning. Doesn't it seem that if no other, at least "infused" knowledge should have trumped human knowledge when it came to life and death?

Quote:

Ultimately it seems to me that your problem is twofold --a lack of understanding of what a 'mistake' is, and a lack of understanding of human development.

A child who is learning to walk is going to fall. . .not because he MAKES MISTAKES but because he is attempting to perform an entirely new action which his muscles and brain and balance have not been prepared for. A child who is learning to talk is going to lisp because his palate growth is not yet ready to handle certain sounds. Also, child just learning to speak at first mimic the speech of adults (another good reason not to talk 'baby talk' to them). That's why a 3 year old often makes fewer 'errors' than a 4 year old. The 3 year old remembers that his parents (ideally) use the phrase "He and I went down to the store" and thus in his own speech about his brother will say, "he and I went into the yard' while a 4-year-old is actually trying to figure out speech patterns on his OWN and instead will say, "him and me went into the yard'. Those are not mistakes but are logical outcomes of children learning a rather complicated language with many 'exceptions'.

Could Jesus prevent His own death at 2 ½ ?

Quote:

I'll repeat, I believe your problem is that you are assuming that normal development in a child where it falls 'short' of those activities done by adults means the children are 'making mistakes'. . .but that is in fact not the case.

I appreciate your hospitableness; I'm going to disagree that that's my problem.

God bless,
jd

JDaniel · #63 May 18, '12, 5:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

I would say being a "perfect human" means being "perfectly human"- i.e. with human weaknesses, etc.

I doubt that the boy (or even the man) Jesus could do caculus of speak Chinese. I bet He got tired, hungry, maybe even frustrated (these things seem to be in the Gospel). Yet He is God. This is the MYSTERY and SACRIFICE of the Incarnation.

Qoeleth:

But we read none of that in Scripture. Are you positive that He couldn't do those things?

God bless,
jd

vz71 · #64 May 18, '12, 7:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

Ultimately it seems to me that your problem is twofold --a lack of understanding of what a 'mistake' is, and a lack of understanding of human development.

Someone here was kind enough to supply me with a definition, it is posted earlier in the thread.

vz71 · #65 May 18, '12, 7:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDaniel

Catholic teaching says that Jesus had three kinds of knowledge: beatific, infused and human. Only one of those three can be considered "according to the child's understanding." Only one of those knowledges was developmental. He had the other two from the beginning. Doesn't it seem that if no other, at least "infused" knowledge should have trumped human knowledge when it came to life and death?

No.
Otherwise scripture would be in error where it tells us that only the Father knows the hour of the second coming.

It would appear that God chose to isolate his natures such that knowledge that one nature would have does not automatically mean the other has the same knowledge.

**Tantum ergo** · #66 May 19, '12, 6:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDaniel

TE:

Catholic teaching says that Jesus had three kinds of knowledge: beatific, infused and human. Only one of those three can be considered "according to the child's understanding." Only one of those knowledges was developmental. He had the other two from the beginning. Doesn't it seem that if no other, at least "infused" knowledge should have trumped human knowledge when it came to life and death?

You were saying, as I understood it, that Jesus as a human being could make mistakes. I was saying that your example of a 2-1/2 year old walking into a street and into the path of a horseman was not a MISTAKE on the part of the child. I don't understand therefore why you're bringing this up because it has nothing to do with Jesus making a mistake. (and of course, I'm a firm believer that if Jesus had toddled out in front of a Roman soldier that the solider would somehow 'miraculously' be able to avert a collision.

)

Now you or I, being grownups, would know before we crossed the street to look both ways, so IF we just 'ran into the road' without looking WE would be making a mistake because we have the development, the tools, and the understanding to know that you don't just run into a street. Two year olds do not have the above and so if they run into a street it is not a mistake on their part; the mistake would be on the parent or caretaker who was not attending to the child, or on the careless horseman who wasn't observing appropriate 'speed' in a residential area.

I really do NOT think that the Blessed Virgin OR St. Joseph, who KNEW their child was the Son of God, would be 'inattentive', so that takes out the first part of the above. As for the careless horseman, well, like I said, we have all witnessed what seem to be 'miraculous' avoidances of what seemed certain catastrophe. So since we don't get a mistake from the baby (who doesn't know that a street is dangerous), we don't a mistake from the parents (who are perfectly vigilant) and we don't get a mistsake from the horseman because somehow he becomes 'aware' and swerves in time. . .well, we're all set. No mistakes!
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Could Jesus prevent His own death at 2 ½ ?

Again, we are not talking about a mistake here.

I appreciate your hospitableness; I'm going to disagree that that's my problem.

Thank you, that is gracious of you. I still believe you're missing a vital point, but probably I'm just not being sufficiently clear in my explanation.

Anyway, we both believe and love Jesus and I'm sure that if one of us is 'getting it wrong' that He will give us the opportunity and the tools to 'get it right'.

God bless,
jd

livingwordunity · #67 May 19, '12, 6:47 pm

God doesn't make mistakes, and Jesus is God.

LegoGE1947 · #68 May 23, '12, 4:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingwordunity

God doesn't make mistakes, and Jesus is God.

I often wondered about Jesus' choice of Judas as an apostle, since it was Judas who betrayed him. Any ideas about that? Wouldn't that be considered as a mistake?

Catholic80 · #69 May 23, '12, 8:37 pm

Never forget, that even while Jesus had to be "taught" by Mary and Joseph, He was also God.

What you are basically saying is that Jesus experienced malice, and revenge as child. God does not take revenge, nor is he malicious.

vz71 · #70 May 24, '12, 4:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegoGE1947

I often wondered about Jesus' choice of Judas as an apostle, since it was Judas who betrayed him. Any ideas about that? Wouldn't that be considered as a mistake?

Not at all.
We are all provided free will.
Judas exercised it.

LegoGE1947 · #71 May 24, '12, 6:11 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vz71

Not at all.
We are all provided free will.
Judas exercised it.

Duly noted

Dymphna82 · #72 May 25, '12, 5:35 am

Well, if that was the case, maybe Jesus chose Judas because he saw thart Judas had the chance to NOT betray him, or saw that he needed Judas to fulfill the prophecy.

So is it hard to imagine that he may have acted with malice to test his earthly parents, Mary and Joseph?

noroifinesse · #73 May 25, '12, 4:30 pm

But Jesus from eternity past always has been God the Son: He didn't turn into God at a certain age. And we read in Luke 2:40 that as a child Jesus - God the Son "...grew, and waxed strong, full of wisdom; and the grace of God was in him." To me, the temporarily killing of bullies does not indicate either God's wisdom or His grace.Bolivar Belicosos Finos