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  #1  
Old Oct 24, '09, 10:16 pm
PeteZaHut PeteZaHut is offline
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Default Sacrifice vs. Suicide

When is there a difference between sacrificing your life for others and committing suicide due to the end not justifying the means?
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  #2  
Old Oct 25, '09, 12:11 am
Eileen T Eileen T is offline
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Default Re: Sacrifice vs. Suicide

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteZaHut View Post
When is there a difference between sacrificing your life for others and committing suicide due to the end not justifying the means?
It is in the intention.

If your intention is to try to save someone else's life but losing yours in the act, it is not suicide.

Suicide is the deliberate intention to end your own life because you have chosen to die.

It is the difference between Jesus and Judas.

Jesus knew in advance what His end would be but His intention was to preach the Good News of Salvation so that people would repent of their sins and attain the Kingdom of Heaven.

Judas, on the other hand,when he realised the enormity of his crime, despaired of receiving pardon for his sin and took his own life because he could not face up to and live with his guilt.

Saul persecuted the Body of Christ - the Church - yet, when confronted with it he did not kill himself but repented. Judas could have done the same but chose not to.
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  #3  
Old Oct 25, '09, 12:16 am
choy choy is offline
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Default Re: Sacrifice vs. Suicide

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteZaHut View Post
When is there a difference between sacrificing your life for others and committing suicide due to the end not justifying the means?
John 15:13
No one can have greater love than to lay down his life for his friends.


suicide is the opposite. there is no greater selfishness in suicide. because you turned back on God who offers you hope in everything. you turn your back on your family and friends who care about you and love you. and you turned your back on yourself by giving up
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  #4  
Old Oct 25, '09, 2:12 am
Angelo Michael Angelo Michael is offline
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Default Re: Sacrifice vs. Suicide

I disagree with the notion that those who commit suicide are comparable to Judas Iscariot. Many people who commit suicide are depressed or lost and to attribute evil or demonic possession to them is not fair. Although I do not advocate or promote suicide, I also am precluded from judging another. The judgment against Judas Iscariot was issued by Christ, and I believe Christ was authorized to make that judgment* against His betrayer.

Matthew 26:
23: And [Christ] answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
24: The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
25: Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

*(In my opinion, Christ's judgment against Judas Iscariot is not an endorsement or advocation of suicide [or abortion].)

Matthew 7:
1: Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3: And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4: Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5: Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Luke 6:
36: Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37: Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Matthew 10:
28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29: Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30: But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31: Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32: Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 12:
30: He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33: Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37: For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


John 5:
19: Then answered [Christ] and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20: For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21: For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22: For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26: For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27: And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30: I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 8:
15: Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16: And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17: It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18: I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
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  #5  
Old Oct 25, '09, 2:33 am
Whitacre_Girl Whitacre_Girl is offline
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Default Re: Sacrifice vs. Suicide

I think a general way to judge is why a person is choosing to die. If they are doing it to save another, or because they have another's best interests at heart it is sacrifice. However, if a person chooses to die to end their own suffering, or by thinking it will better things for themself, it is suicide.

My husband and I were actually discussing this when we were watching the new Dawn of the Dead. It's a movie about zombies. In the end, one of the characters becomes infected with the virus that will turn them into a cannibalistic monster. The man puts a gun in his mouth and pulls the trigger. This is a case where his intent meant everything as to whether it was suicide or sacrifice. If we was doing it with the motive that he did not want to become a violent monster that would murder human beings it is sacrifice. If he did it because he did not want to suffer the pain of death and face becoming the undead, it was suicide.

Although the tricky part gets in to when some people kill themselves with messed up beliefs. I have seriously contemplated suicide at my worst times. My reason behind it wasn't necessarily to end my own suffering, but to end my husband's. A lot of people who do kill themselves feel that they are so messed up that it would be better for everyone if they died. Some people do this to try and get the life insurance to their families (although life insurance doesn't pay for suicide) and in cases like this, I believe full knowledge doesn't exist to make the suicide mortal, but it is still a sin.
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  #6  
Old Oct 25, '09, 6:30 am
Christy Beth Christy Beth is offline
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Default Re: Sacrifice vs. Suicide

Intention is the key word here. God knows what is on a persons heart at the time of their death. While some reasons for suicides seem petty to us, the person may have unintentionally thought it was a big issue. Leaving behind friends and family doesn't always come to mind with someone about to commit suicide. Of course. I can only speak for myself. I've attempted suicide three times in my lfe. Each and every time I did so because I was in such emotional pain that I just wanted it to stop.

Where did God come into this? At the time I didn't understand how great His love if for us. My thought, for too many years, was "if God is a God of love, why are His people so hateful?" I never saw His love played out in real life. I can honestly say that back then I didn't know what true love really was. Sure, I saw what people considered love played out every day. But true love? God's love? Christian love? I never saw that. If it was there, it was a weak example of it. It never came near to healing my hurts, or even showing me that it was possible to be loved in the here and now.

That's one thing I saw too many times in the past. I'd go to chruch and either I'd be basically ignored or outright avoided. It was the few and far between who could show me what the Christian life was all about. I have a couple of people like that in my life right now. And I plan on doing what I can to keep them in my life as long as possible.

There is the saying, "It's more blessed to give than to receive." But a person can't give what they don't have. How can someone show love if love was never shown to them? How can a person value their own lives it their's isn't valued by someone else? If a child grows up and thinks he/she isn't loved, that leaves a gaping hole in their lives that can only be filled by God. But they can't find their way on their own. I know how hard it is to love others sometimes. I struggle with it myself. But we need to continue in prayer and effort to comfort those who need it. And that includes those who are at a point in their lives when they are feeling like life is at it's end.
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  #7  
Old Oct 25, '09, 8:03 am
PeteZaHut PeteZaHut is offline
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Default Re: Sacrifice vs. Suicide

Everything everyone is saying about intention makes sense, but I guess I am getting caught up on the whole ends not justifying the means thing. If the end is saving other people's lives, but the means is taking your own life, is that wrong, or am I thinking about it the wrong way?
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  #8  
Old Oct 25, '09, 2:21 pm
Whitacre_Girl Whitacre_Girl is offline
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Default Re: Sacrifice vs. Suicide

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteZaHut View Post
Everything everyone is saying about intention makes sense, but I guess I am getting caught up on the whole ends not justifying the means thing. If the end is saving other people's lives, but the means is taking your own life, is that wrong, or am I thinking about it the wrong way?
No, if you are taking your own life to save another's beyond any shadow of a doubt, that is not wrong. But you have to know when you do it that by allowing yourself to be killed, another will be saved.
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  #9  
Old Oct 27, '09, 11:05 pm
wjp984 wjp984 is offline
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Default Re: Sacrifice vs. Suicide

The difference is consent. The whole ends does not justify the means argument assumes that one is killing innocnets without their consent and justifying it by saying it will save lives.

When one sacrifices their own life for another, they are consenting.
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  #10  
Old Oct 29, '09, 4:58 am
MumboJumbo MumboJumbo is offline
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Default Re: Sacrifice vs. Suicide

Suicide should probably be considered as a death for personal reasons whatever they may be. However, if you take your own life to make a political statement or to save other lives in some way, that should be considered martyrdom and seperate from suicide.
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  #11  
Old Oct 30, '09, 11:03 am
TAS2000 TAS2000 is offline
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Default Re: Sacrifice vs. Suicide

The end doesn't justify the means argument is about evil acts. One may never do evil such that a good may result from it. This is why it is ok to kill an aggressor when you are defending your self or loved ones, but not ok to murder someone to say...take their organs to save 5 other peoples lives. Murder is evil, self defense is not. The end is not that some one was killed.

Someone committing suicide pretty much has no good end, or it wouldn't be suicide. It would have to be pretty extreme to find a case where taking your own life truly has a good outcome, such as the movie example cited, where he is a danger to others and there is no hope of a cure, and even then we should still trust in God... maybe take yourself off to a deserted island or lock yourself in a cage. Whereas sacrificing oneself for others is typically something you would do and still hope that somehow you'd live through it, but accept that its not likely.
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