Catholic position/ US Catholic leaders

[777rak]

I have an interesting question about Catholicism that just came up with my mom (who grew up Catholic) {I still live at home going to college}


Here problem with Catholicism is why haven't Catholic/Vatican excommunicated alot of US. politicians (Pelosi, Kennedy's etc...) who support abortion?


She is a very big supporter of Alternatives Womens Center: http://www.pregnancyescondido.com/


Might I ask for advice on how to politely deal with this issue/topic? I am right now in a weird/bad/awkward moments right now.

[martininthefiel]

Take the log out of your own eye, and let the bishops, themselves, decide what is best to do in that situation. They know a lot more than you or I do.

[thistle]

Originally Posted by 777rak

I have an interesting question about Catholicism that just came up with my mom (who grew up Catholic) {I still live at home going to college}


Here problem with Catholicism is why haven't Catholic/Vatican excommunicated alot of US. politicians (Pelosi, Kennedy's etc...) who support abortion?


She is a very big supporter of Alternatives Womens Center: http://www.pregnancyescondido.com/


Might I ask for advice on how to politely deal with this issue/topic? I am right now in a weird/bad/awkward moments right now.

Those who support abortion are automatically excommunicated. There is no formal process for that. Of all the things that can result in excommunication only two require a formal process and all others are automatic.
See below:


Ferendae sententiae (excommunication after formal proceedings):

Canon 1378 The pretended celebration of the Eucharist or of sacramental Confession.
Canon 1388 Violation of the Seal of Confession by an interpreter.

Latae sententiae (automatic excommunication):

Canon 1364 Apostasy, heresy, or schism
Canon 1367 Violation of the Sacred Species
Canon 1370 Laying violent hands on the Pope
Canon 1378 Absolution of an accomplice
Canon 1382 Episcopal consecration without authorisation from the Holy See
Canon 1388 Violation of the Seal of Confession by a Confessor
Canon 1398 Procuring an abortion

[Credo ergo sum]

Originally Posted by thistle

Latae sententiae (automatic excommunication):

Canon 1364 Apostasy, heresy, or schism
Canon 1367 Violation of the Sacred Species
Canon 1370 Laying violent hands on the Pope
Canon 1378 Absolution of an accomplice
Canon 1382 Episcopal consecration without authorisation from the Holy See
Canon 1388 Violation of the Seal of Confession by a Confessor
Canon 1398 Procuring an abortion

Really? I didn't know such a canon exists, how remarkable.

[Hokomai]

Correct me, please if I I wrong but I think: you are not excommunicated for supporting the decriminalization of abortion. You are for having or taking part in or procuring an abortion. This is a different matter from denying the Eucharist to those who support the decriminalization or public provision of abortion.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by thistle

Those who support abortion are automatically excommunicated.

That's not true. The actual wording of Canon 1398 is:

Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

There is a world of difference between "supporting" abortion and "procuring a completed abortion".

[Boulder257]

There may be a difference between the two, but I fail to see a "world" of difference. How is it that much different to support/fight for the right to allow someone to kill a child and to actually kill one? In a sense, by arguing that they can you are helping them to "procure" an abortion. What am I missing?

[GratefulFred]

And does a GOOD confession cancel excommunication?

[BillP]

Originally Posted by Boulder257

There may be a difference between the two, but I fail to see a "world" of difference.

One involves automatic excommunicaiton, the other doesn't (see the quoted text above)

Originally Posted by Boulder257

How is it that much different to support/fight for the right to allow someone to kill a child and to actually kill one? In a sense, by arguing that they can you are helping them to "procure" an abortion. What am I missing?

In the narrow sense, "helping" to procure an abortion doesn't incur excommunication procuring one does. In the larger sense where does one draw the line? Using your exact same logic then anyone who has sex with his wife is "helping" her procure an abortion. After all, it would be impossible for her to abort if he hadn't gotten her pregnant.

The thing that's got me curious is why you are so ready to misrepresent Canon law?

[BillP]

Originally Posted by GratefulFred

And does a GOOD confession cancel excommunication?

It depends. Technically, such excommunications have to be lifted by Bishops, but here in the States, most (all?) Bishops have delegated authority to lift them to the local parish priests. So in such cases all one needs to do is make a good confession.

[Rolltide]

Originally Posted by Boulder257

There may be a difference between the two, but I fail to see a "world" of difference. How is it that much different to support/fight for the right to allow someone to kill a child and to actually kill one? In a sense, by arguing that they can you are helping them to "procure" an abortion. What am I missing?

It is different under the law in the same way that simply being part of the KKK is not the same as actually lynching a person. It might be sinful, but it is most certainly not the same sin.

[GratefulFred]

Thanks, BillP.

This is area I do not know well at all. I have never known where the line is drawn betweeen Mortal Sin and Excommunication, especially when excommunication is a default automatic.

It seems that many people may not realize they excommunicated themselves and thus may not talk in those terms when they later make a good confession. If excommunication is not on their minds and it is not discussed in confession then a priest may not know he is lifing the excommunication or should ask more questions to determine the sincerity of repentence.

Again, I just do not know. For me it is an academic exercise and learning more about the rules.

As for public leaders, I hear what they say on TV and such, but I really have no way of knowing their status concerning confession or other private discussions with a priest or Bishop. That level is beyond my personal need to evaluate.

[thistle]

Originally Posted by BillP

That's not true. The actual wording of Canon 1398 is:



There is a world of difference between "supporting" abortion and "procuring a completed abortion".

By supporting abortion I mean a Catholic is rejecting the Church teaching. That is heresy and that is what results in automatic excommunication.