What beliefs are required to be Catholic. - Page 4

teachccd · #46 Jun 10, '12, 5:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ella03

Thanks to everyone for their input. But I am now bowing out since this has gotten completely off track. I only wanted to know what beliefs the Church required for membership and that question has been answered (all). If that's true then returning to the Church isn't possible for me. I've reached this stage in my life by a long search for God and the truth and truly believe that some of the RCC teachings are not in line with Biblical teaching but are later human additions.

I was hoping that my question wouldn't start a long string of posts of people trying to convince me I was wrong and me trying to convince them I was right. But it did become that. Which was never my intention.

In line with Biblical teachings? Like which 27 vooks are to be considered as inspired text? Where is that in the Bible?

CleverUserName · #47 Jun 10, '12, 5:05 pm

Chances are, if you were to know the Lutheran position on everything great and small, you would not agree 100% with all of it, either.

Yet there you are.

So it goes to an issue of credibility.
If I were you, I would look at which church you would find more credible, more trustworthy. For me, the Catholic Church is the answer to that. Perhaps after some research, you would agree.

The Catholic Church has had to defend itself since 33 AD, for far longer than the Lutheran Church, and if the Church's dogma was incorrect, it would surely have fallen by now and not maintained itself as the largest Church in the world, defended by scholars century after century....

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."...... Do you really think Jesus was talking about the Lutheran Church when he said that?

Credibility.

Please think about it.

Credo ergo sum · #48 Jun 10, '12, 5:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by teachccd

Like which 27 vooks are to be considered as inspired text? Where is that in the Bible?

I guess in the front, the table of contents would be my guess

**LilyM** · #49 Jun 10, '12, 5:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ella03

Actually it does. It states clearly that ALL humans sins. Christ alone was sinless according to the Bible. If Mary is a member of the human race then she sins. So if she doesn't sin then she is not human.

Scripture equally clearly states that 'The WHOLE Judean countryside and ALL the people of Jerusalem' went to see John the Baptist. And that this same 'ALL', 'confessing their sins, were baptised by him in the Jordan River.' (Mark 1:5-6)

By your logic it must follow that there wasn't a single man, woman or child in the place - literally - who failed to see John at the Jordan. And who failed to be baptised by him. No business owner who had to keep the shop running, no-one lying sick at home, no one who was disabled and so physically unable to move. No poor person who couldn't afford to travel to the Jordan. No child who hadn't sinned and for whom baptism therefore was thought to be unnecessary. No pagan Roman or Greek who didn't even believe in Israel's God or prophets.

Not even Herod who hated him so that he imprisoned him. Or Herodias who hated him so that she intrigued for his death. No-one. But that all, without any exception whatsoever, not only saw him but were moved to be baptised by him.

A little overly literal, don't you think? And a clear case where ALL does not mean literally no exceptions.

mark a · #50 Jun 10, '12, 6:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ella03

Why would God tell them? Isn't the whole point of intercession to speak to the Saint so that they can pass it on to God, so to speak. If God already knows your prayer why would he need anyone elses help?

If that's God's attitude, why would he listen to those on earth we ask to pray for us?

DavidFilmer · #51 Jun 10, '12, 6:30 pm

You are not required to believe ANYTHING to be Catholic. Not even dogmatically-defined doctrines of the Church. PERIOD.

However, wherever you find yourself lacking in belief, you must recognize that your disbelief is a fault that you should work to overcome. You may not be obstinate in your disbelief, nor may you mislead others by drawing them away from the Faith of the Church. You should diligently seek spiritual council, study, etc in order to reconcile yourself with Church teaching. But we cannot simply make ourselves believe something, and the Church does not expect you to do so.

Ion · #52 Jun 11, '12, 12:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ella03

That's actually the crux of the problem I have with intercessory prayer. There are NT Biblical passages that state quite clearly that there are no intermediaries between God and man except Christ. And the Bible passages that Catholics have offered me to prove that intercessory prayer is OK are rather nebulous. So I tend to interpret the not so clear in light of the clear. Since the Bible can not contradict itself, if the Apostles taught that Christ is the only intermediary between man and God, then all Biblical passages must teach the same thing - even if they appear to say something else.

My question actually wasn't "what can I believe" - it is "what beliefs are needed to truly be Catholic".

Indeed, Christ is the only intermediary between us and God. But do you remember what He said about the good deeds somebody did for His little brothers? They are like they were done for Him! The saints are in His name, and already in the Body of Christ. You can pray for intercession.
Prayers for intercession work, there are to many accounts not to wonder about, but you probably want something typical protestant, 100% succes, automatic like "I believe thus I am saved".

Ion · #53 Jun 11, '12, 1:08 am

Also, how do you imagine a prayer for intercession?
Maybe this is the problem...

mskejj · #54 Jun 11, '12, 11:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ella03

I'm aware of these passages, but again, the Bible can not contradict itself. The less clear passages (as much of Revelation is) must have the same meaning as the clearer passages. Since there are NT scriptures that state clearly that there are NO intermediaries between God and man except Christ, then clearly these passages in Rev must agree with that.

Just because a creature in heaven is holding a bowl of prayers and offering them to God it does not automatically follow that they know the contents of the prayers.

I guess this is when I look to John 16:12-13 in which Jesus tells his Apostles, the first leaders of the Church,: "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannont bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."

This passage allows me to know with certainty that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church in the matters of faith and morals. The teaching Magisterium of the Church has the intercession of saints as part of their doctrine so I believe it because Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church in all truth.

On another note....a story of my 98 devout Catholic grandmother. As she was about to die, a family member asked her if she would ask God to grant their prayer when she reached the other side. They were unable to have children and on three separate occasions they planned for a child and at the last minute were told that the mother had changed her mind and decided to keep the child. They were so disheartened and were thinking that perhaps parenthood was not to be. My grandmother told them yes, she would ask God to answer their prayer. After my grandmother's death, they began a novena asking for her intercession. On the 9th day of the novena, out of the blue, Catholic Charities called and said a woman had just delivered a baby at a local hospital and could not keep it and asked if they would find a home for her child. She chose them as the parents of her child and they asked her if they could be ready to receive their new baby daughter in 3 days. That beautiful sweet child is now 3 years old and the light of their life. And yes, we all know that my grandmother who was the mother of 7, grandmother of 44 and great-grandmother of 128 and counting, is in heaven and interceded for them and God answered her prayer and their prayer!