openess to life vs financial means dilemma - Page 2

raising7saints · #16 Jul 8, '12, 7:02 am

I don't know how to copy the text, so to answer your inquiry real Juliane, She has asked me for affirmation that to be open to life is what she needs to do as a Catholic. We both belong to a larger local Catholic support group and then I am in some smaller groups with her - Bible studies, etc. I have known her for a long time and know more the details of her personal life etc.

When a group of us Catholic women sit around and have a chat - things will come up like this particular friend asking about being open to life. Others in the group, who are unaware of her specifics, will say things like "well there needs to be a very grave reason to put off having more children." She then will say things to me like "well like "Mary" said there needs to be a very grave reason to put off having more children, so I need to continue to be open to life since God does always seem to provide for us, right?"

So I come back to the original dilemma I posted. I feel being open to life is very important and I know even many Catholics are not, but I keep feeling there is a financial responsibility to that openness which she is not keeping. Her situation seems to me "a grave reason" for postponing more children. Is that just my feeling or is it good Catholic counsel? I don't want to answer her in my own anger (which I recognize) over her choices, but she is "a coffee buddy" and our link is our Catholic faith and I KNOW this question will come up again with her and I want to be prepared with a charitable Catholic answer.

TheRealJuliane · #17 Jul 8, '12, 7:38 am

Sounds like she might have a bit of conscience about her decisions!

If she is asking you for an opinion or confirmation of her choices, then she isn't 100% certain that she is right. And that is good!

If it were me...I'm kind of a blunt-speaking person.

I'm no diplomat, and I'm curious enough to ask the questions that some others wouldn't.

"Well, since you asked, Jane...I wanted to know how you justify charging up your credit cards before you declared bankruptcy. I know it's not the exact question you asked, but it does tie in, so humor me and give me your best answer."

And then I would be praying to the Holy Spirit to lead me in the direction that would most benefit Jane! I'd probably remind her that someone is paying for that nice furniture and vacation that she charged, including the store owner and the hotel/airline. Those employees might be trying to raise their own families and because her choices cost the company a lot of money, the company had to lay a few of them off. Some people have a hard time seeing beyond their own noses and maybe she's had a rather selfish upbringing and was not shown how her decisions affect others.

OTOH, maybe she doesn't care. If that's the case, she will reveal it during the conversation, and then you have more information with which to make your own decision.

But yes, I would remind her that there are ways that Catholics can postpone children that aren't sinful. Ask her if she's ever heard of NFP. (not in the rude way a lot of people ask Catholics, "Have you ever heard of birth control?") But in a way that she knows you are trying to be helpful as well as charitable.

gardenswithkids · #18 Jul 8, '12, 4:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by raising7saints

...So I come back to the original dilemma I posted. I feel being open to life is very important and I know even many Catholics are not, but I keep feeling there is a financial responsibility to that openness which she is not keeping. Her situation seems to me "a grave reason" for postponing more children. Is that just my feeling or is it good Catholic counsel? I don't want to answer her in my own anger (which I recognize) over her choices, but she is "a coffee buddy" and our link is our Catholic faith and I KNOW this question will come up again with her and I want to be prepared with a charitable Catholic answer.

IF she asks again--and ONLY IF she asks--you could refer her to the Catechism 2368-2370. Tthe word "grave" is sometimes also translated "just" or "serious". Also point out that the Church has not defined for spouses "grave" reasons. The Church leaves it to faithful couples to prayerfully discern what is a just/grave/serious reason for them. Therefore, it is a matter between her and her husband. If they believe they have just/grave/serious reasons for avoiding pregnancy, then NFP or abstinance would be licit options. They would both have to agree on abstaining during fertile times because otherwise that could create other problems besides their poverty and bankrupcy. The Church doesn't compel any couple to practice NFP or abstinance--but it does take a firm stand against artificial contraception. Telling someone who specifically asks about it that she should pray over the matter with her husband would seem consistent with a charity.

While I appreciate very much her desire to follow Church teachings in the matter of family planning, there are other many other sins beyond sexual sins. Signing credit card slips for extravagent purchases when she has no intention of paying them back strikes me as problematic. It seems dishonest, even closely akin to lying and stealing. The Church also takes a stand about honesty and truth. So once again--IF she asks, you might point out the problems of her behavior prior to their declaring bankrupcy and point her in the direction of the Confessional.

And... since you are personally struggling with anger over this issue, you might even suggest that the two of you go together. You could even make it an outing with the other ladies from your group.. A group of friends from a women's group I was a part of for years would sometimes meet at a local parish for private, individual confessions--and then we'd all go out to lunch after it.

(oh, and since she has financial struggles, chose an inexpensive location--and perhaps even offer to pay for her lunch.)

raising7saints · #19 Jul 9, '12, 4:41 am

Thanks for the advice and the references. I especially feel comfortable with giving a reference. Like I said I know this will come up again because it does every time she has a baby and starts planning the next. I have always felt it is between she and her husband but she does make statements again and again asking affirmation of me and another friend. This has weighed on my heart so much, and we have friends who have 9, 11, 13 children and she "wants to be a good Catholic like them." Thank you all for listening and sharing.

Peanut7949 · #20 Jul 11, '12, 6:56 am

What's their house work like? Is it clean and orderly? Simple?

I wouldn't start on the hotspots yet, but you can help your friend in little ways.

Pink_Lemonade · #21 Jul 11, '12, 9:51 am

I think there is a difference between being open to life and not bothering to chart, and actually using NFP to become pregnant. A couple needs serious reasons to use NFP to avoid, but a couple is also called to responsible parenthood and the balance between the two is something that is ultimately between the couple, God, and potentially a priest or spiritual director.

It does seem to me that your friend is being imprudent. This is not the same thing as saying it's black-and-white right or wrong, but that the family is unwisely managing their money and because they have chosen specifically to plan for a large family, they do have a responsibility to make sure they can provide for that family. What they have done financially is wrong. Trusting in God is not supposed to mean that we just do whatever we want and expect to be provided for. We are co-creators, and God does not interfere with our free will. If we choose to try to conceive during a time that is fertile, God allows us that freedom but that does not always mean that we are being prudent, depending on our unique circumstances. The attitude that they deserve to have others finance their vacations and furnishings is concerning. If she were to ask you again whether you think she is doing the right thing, I would take the advice given by previous posters who said you might point her to the Catechism and maybe tactfully discuss the bankruptcy issue in terms of an awareness that the money to pay for their lifestyle was taken from other hardworking people.

horselvr · #22 Jul 12, '12, 4:06 pm

Running up the credit cards with no intent to pay the debt and filing for bankrupcy is much more than problematic it is actually against the law and is considered fraud. She is fortunate that no one has turned her in. The bankrupcy court would not appreciate her dishonesty.

No matter what spin she prefers to put on it, she is stealing.

Blenderx · #23 Jul 12, '12, 6:00 pm

Setting aside the bankruptcy issues... lets be clear that using NFP to avoid, provided there are just reasons, IS being open to life. OP's friend seems to equate it with being 'open' to having as many children as physically possible, with the presumption that if He allows it, then it must be His will. She also sounds rather insecure, and should be made to recognize that every family is entirely unique and while God may call one couple to have 12 children, He may call another to have much fewer, and that this isn't a sign of preference on His part, or of holiness on the couple's. It is the couple's responsibility to discern His will for their individual family.

lifeisbeautiful · #24 Jul 13, '12, 12:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gardenswithkids

I take issue with her being open-to-bad financially choices like vacations and extravagent spending followed by intentional bankrupcy. Those are separate issues from being open to life.

I don't mind if a devoted Catholic couple chose more children even if that meant then needed public support to get milk. There a plenty of children getting education and even food via tax money for public schools. Investing in children is in the best interest of the public.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gardenswithkids

You say her husband works hard and I bet she does too because it's not easy raising a large family. HOWEVER... the vacations and new furniture with the intention of declaring bankrupcy...that gets to me and I can see why it would annoy you too. The problem is the bankrupcy laws that reward such behavior by allowing something like that to happen, but I don't know how to resolve that.... It's a larger societal problem. It won't be solved simply by her having fewer children because if she'd had less children, they might just have taken a more extravagent vacation and gotten even nicer furniture!

If she asks you about being open to life, I would support it (not sure if I would chart to try to conceive asap unless I felt God was calling us to do so, but receiving them on His timing, sure), but you can find tactful words to add something about how it is ok to accept help when we need it, while we do our best to be good stewards of our finances etc and work hard to support our family as well as we can.... Something along those lines.

Peanut7949 · #25 Jul 14, '12, 10:42 am

A previous helper hit it on the spot. She is stealing.. Talk to her gently about how no one likes taxes but we have to pay them... however its not responsible to live irresponsibly, EVER so she if she wants to be a better friend to her fellow citizens needs to stop taking vacations... there are probably nice nature parks for picnics in town or near town. Before you get to talk to her about this, she has to be able to bring it up. And as lightly and gently as you can, tell her what she is doing about frivelious entertainment is not okay.

Some things you can offer on a happy note that will no doubt help her family...

What else is out of order in her life? If her house is, help her clean up (this will help her think clearly and find the truth in things easier)

Is her cooking smash? Help her cook, have her and your family gather and cook and eat together.

Does she WANT to afford her own food? (I hate food stamps... would rather the neighbors and family help as it used to be) Help her start a garden, recommend healthier eating... sometimes the worse people eat the worse their decisions get...

allow much time for this case to get better, but let your friend know you are there to give her a helping hand once a week or so.

God Bless your heart deary, you are right!! Be able to talk about what she brings up in a kind and truthful manner. Be her friend and don't suffer your faith

BTW like the olden days, more the merrier, kids were welcome and celebrated because they are here to help us in all ways... gardening, weeding, preparing for cooking, getting jobs, little jobs, flowers, setting tables... CHORES the kids for sure. And teach them obedience, poverty, and chastity. God bless~