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  #16  
Old Jun 28, '12, 11:09 pm
Pork Roll Pork Roll is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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I sure hope the USCCB do not represent the entire Catholic view on things, cause if that's true I will have to remain a Protestant, for I strongly believe that the desire to do good by siding with evil negates any good that can be done.
Statements or documents made by the USCCB should not be taken as offical catholic teaching. Statements from the Holy Father and his encyclicals should be understood more in that way.
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  #17  
Old Jun 28, '12, 11:18 pm
austenbosten austenbosten is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by Pork Roll View Post
Statements or documents made by the USCCB should not be taken as offical catholic teaching. Statements from the Holy Father and his encyclicals should be understood more in that way.
That's good news
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  #18  
Old Jun 29, '12, 5:13 am
Seeker1961 Seeker1961 is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by Pork Roll View Post
Statements or documents made by the USCCB should not be taken as offical catholic teaching. Statements from the Holy Father and his encyclicals should be understood more in that way.
"Unless we agree with them, then they have the binding force of law and you are not a good Catholic unless you agree also."

I find it amusing here how the Bishops slide in and out of an authoritative position depending on how closely their pronouncements match the hard right political philosophy of the American GOP base.

They are your leaders or they aren't. For people who are so against Cafeteria Catholicism, there's a LOT of it going on in here.

FTR-I agree with the Bishops and I support them-with the obvious exception of any and all who assisted in the criminal actions of abusive priests.
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  #19  
Old Jun 29, '12, 7:02 am
Lucky7 Lucky7 is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
Key Quotes from Todayís Decision that Signal the Courtís Willingness to Strike Down the HHS Mandate

http://www.becketfund.org/key-quotes...he-hhs-mandate

Groups opposed to contraception mandate will push forward with lawsuits

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...-with-lawsuits
So it looks like the HHS mandate still needs to be addressed by the Supreme Court. Does anyone know when it will (considering the HHS mandate is supposed to go into effect in August)???
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  #20  
Old Jun 29, '12, 7:53 am
Ridgerunner Ridgerunner is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by Seeker1961 View Post

I find it amusing here how the Bishops slide in and out of an authoritative position depending on how closely their pronouncements match the hard right political philosophy of the American GOP base.

They are your leaders or they aren't. For people who are so against Cafeteria Catholicism, there's a LOT of it going on in here.
I think you're mischaracterizing it.

Almost always, statements by one person or the other who is a functionary of the USCCB are characterized by the media as the declaration of "the bishops". That is rarely so, usually being the statement of one or two people only, and not necessarily being that of any bishop, but the media likes to characterize it as "the bishops" if it expresses a liberal-sounding position. To the extent such statements are matters of prudential judgment, people are free to disagree with them.

Sometimes statements are reiterations of teachings of the Church which are not subjects of prudential judgment, like abortion, euthanasia or homosexual "marriage". Possibly some Catholics express disagreement with those positions, but I have not seen much of that on CAF, and usually people express agreement with them; not because some USCCB functionary said it, but because it clearly represents teachings of the Church.

One of the great difficulties with USCCB statements nowadays is that, as I mentioned, they might represent the opinion of one person only. The statement does not necessarily represent anyone else's position, let alone that of all bishops.
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  #21  
Old Jun 29, '12, 7:56 am
He Man He Man is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by Pork Roll View Post
Statements or documents made by the USCCB should not be taken as offical catholic teaching. Statements from the Holy Father and his encyclicals should be understood more in that way.

Also, my post history too.
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  #22  
Old Jun 29, '12, 8:17 am
_Abyssinia _Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by Seeker1961 View Post
"Unless we agree with them, then they have the binding force of law and you are not a good Catholic unless you agree also."

I find it amusing here how the Bishops slide in and out of an authoritative position depending on how closely their pronouncements match the hard right political philosophy of the American GOP base.

They are your leaders or they aren't. For people who are so against Cafeteria Catholicism, there's a LOT of it going on in here.

FTR-I agree with the Bishops and I support them-with the obvious exception of any and all who assisted in the criminal actions of abusive priests.
There are things which Pope Benedict has said Catholics can have differing opinions on, capital punishment, waging war. He did not mention health care, but that would likely be another. These issues are not doctrine.
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  #23  
Old Jun 29, '12, 8:37 am
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Prodigal Son1 Prodigal Son1 is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
Does not sound to me like they are referring to illegal immigrants, but immigrants generally.
There comes a point we shouldn't try and legally dissect guidance to exclude anyone that could potentially be one of the least of his. That's what some of the points of this thread seem to do, those are specific teachings, or doctrine, we're at liberty to agree or disagree.

We should search our hearts, in light of Christ's teachings, to understand what's right and what's not.
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Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth that which is evil. For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
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  #24  
Old Jun 29, '12, 8:40 am
Elizabeth502 Elizabeth502 is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
There are things which Pope Benedict has said Catholics can have differing opinions on, capital punishment, waging war. He did not mention health care, but that would likely be another. These issues are not doctrine.
Correct. Social Justice is Catholic doctrine, but social justice is a collection of binding principles, not a theology of particular proposals to meet those principles. The bishops (and the Cardinals, and the Pope) remind the laity, and urge the world, to provide for the poor. But none of them are experts in economics, in the effect of demographics, nor have they necessarily projected statistically what particular proposals will likely do or surely do, to the current poor, or how or how not such proposals are likely to affect the middle class negatively (creating poverty).

Their focus is overwhelmingly the present, and presumes a static view (which is not realistic, in the dynamics of economics and demographics, among many other variables). Even a life insurance professional needs to keep current with actuarial tables in order to recommend which insurance to buy; it's not a question about whether the purchase of life insurance is something he will always recommend.
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  #25  
Old Jun 29, '12, 9:49 am
TheTrueCentrist TheTrueCentrist is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by Pork Roll View Post
Statements or documents made by the USCCB should not be taken as offical catholic teaching. Statements from the Holy Father and his encyclicals should be understood more in that way.
Indeed. We should look to them only as somewhat authoritative on issues of faith and morals, having studied Catholic teachings extensively. However, we must further caution that they do not have the same expertise when it comes to politics, legal interpretation, and indeed the health care system. Our reading of the bishops statements should then be If the law does the things the bishops say it does, then it should be fixed.

However, when other Catholic groups that do have expertise in one of those areas (e.g. the Catholic Health Association, which has more expertise in the health care system) comes out in support of the law, it is not evidence that the bishops position on morals is wrong, or indeed that the CHS is contradicting Catholic teaching. Instead it is evidence that the bishop's interpretation of the law is not correct. In other words, the law does not do the things that the bishops say need fixing.
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  #26  
Old Jun 29, '12, 10:32 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by Seeker1961 View Post
"Unless we agree with them, then they have the binding force of law and you are not a good Catholic unless you agree also."

I find it amusing here how the Bishops slide in and out of an authoritative position depending on how closely their pronouncements match the hard right political philosophy of the American GOP base.

They are your leaders or they aren't. For people who are so against Cafeteria Catholicism, there's a LOT of it going on in here.

FTR-I agree with the Bishops and I support them-with the obvious exception of any and all who assisted in the criminal actions of abusive priests.


I might add that it is when the majority here do not support the USCCB's pronouncements, we can really get into discussion of the issues. When they support the USCCB's stance, the issues are not considered up for debate at all, but definitively settled.
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From the age of pharaohs through myriad mutations of the enduring human inclination to oppress and exclude through unjust remuneration, the basic justification has remained unchanged. It is the fear, affected or real, propounded by countless leaders, scholars, and statesman, that extending justice to all, will lead to national impoverishment and decline. Cyclical retelling of the Exodus story among people of faith serves to celebrate the role of God's saving justice in the human cycle of oppression and redemption. It also serves as an admonition to be on the right side of this story in every age and time.
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  #27  
Old Jun 29, '12, 10:53 am
Ridgerunner Ridgerunner is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by TheTrueCentrist View Post

However, when other Catholic groups that do have expertise in one of those areas (e.g. the Catholic Health Association, which has more expertise in the health care system) comes out in support of the law, it is not evidence that the bishops position on morals is wrong, or indeed that the CHS is contradicting Catholic teaching. Instead it is evidence that the bishop's interpretation of the law is not correct. In other words, the law does not do the things that the bishops say need fixing.
The CHS taking positions contrary to Catholic teaching would not be unexpected. It's primarily a lobbying group for businesses that happen to be hospitals that have the word "Catholic" affixed to their bylaws somewhere. In supporting Obamacare despite the HHS mandate, they're just following the money.
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  #28  
Old Jun 29, '12, 11:03 am
Elizabeth502 Elizabeth502 is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
:when the majority here do not support the USCCB's pronouncements, we can really get into discussion of the issues. When they support the USCCB's stance, the issues are not considered up for debate at all, but definitively settled.
Not even close.

It's when bishops make pronouncements prior to having all the facts, then "we can really get into discussion of the issues," a discussion it becomes patently clear that the bishops have not sufficiently engaged in (yet), or taken advantage of a wide range of information about consequences (to society, to the poor, etc.).

It would be more helpful, in terms of guidance (for those who perhaps are not familiar with the principles of Catholic social doctrine), if the bishops remind the faithful, and the public at large, about what those principles are, and how the morality (justice) of a law should be judged. Thus,

"We oppose (any bill, this bill) which further endangers those among the poor who have no options for relief, and by this bill will be provided no options."

However, if such opposition is not factually based (if a particular proposal does not further endanger the poor, or if it in fact provides options), then their opposition cannot be respected and should not be accepted as proper social justice guidance on a particular piece of legislation. I'm sorry to say that the bishops (or sometimes just particular bishops) do this often. IOW, they react prematurely, or with telescoped understanding of a piece of legislation.

And they often get their definitions wrong, because (again) they are not experts in economics. Often their assumptions are outdated. Example (in their recent statement): "those most in need" = "immigrants." Wrong, dear bishops. Some immigrants are in great need; other immigrants are in great shape. Many citizens/residents are in greater need than many immigrants -- both those here legally and those here illegally.

It's very embarrassing when they make blatant errors like this, and then end up misleading the faithful and the public at large. No, seekerz, I don't want them not to make statements. I want accuracy from my bishops, and I think the faithful are entitled to that, frankly.
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  #29  
Old Jun 29, '12, 11:20 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by Elizabeth502 View Post
Not even close.

It's when bishops make pronouncements prior to having all the facts, then "we can really get into discussion of the issues," a discussion it becomes patently clear that the bishops have not sufficiently engaged in (yet), or taken advantage of a wide range of information about consequences (to society, to the poor, etc.).

It would be more helpful, in terms of guidance (for those who perhaps are not familiar with the principles of Catholic social doctrine), if the bishops remind the faithful, and the public at large, about what those principles are, and how the morality (justice) of a law should be judged. Thus,

"We oppose (any bill, this bill) which further endangers those among the poor who have no options for relief, and by this bill will be provided no options."

However, if such opposition is not factually based (if a particular proposal does not further endanger the poor, or if it in fact provides options), then their opposition cannot be respected and should not be accepted as proper social justice guidance on a particular piece of legislation. I'm sorry to say that the bishops (or sometimes just particular bishops) do this often. IOW, they react prematurely, or with telescoped understanding of a piece of legislation.

And they often get their definitions wrong, because (again) they are not experts in economics. Often their assumptions are outdated. Example (in their recent statement): "those most in need" = "immigrants." Wrong, dear bishops. Some immigrants are in great need; other immigrants are in great shape. Many citizens/residents are in greater need than many immigrants -- both those here legally and those here illegally.

It's very embarrassing when they make blatant errors like this, and then end up misleading the faithful and the public at large. No, seekerz, I don't want them not to make statements. I want accuracy from my bishops, and I think the faithful are entitled to that, frankly.
I'm not saying they are never wrong, I'm simply saying that the only time their 'wrongness' comes up for real discussion here is when they make statements that, to be perfectly frank, are not in line with the stances of the political right.

Otherwise, it's "the bishops disagree...therefore what you think/state/suggest must be wrong". I've been there a thousand times, most recently in a debate on the morning-after-pill.

I don't know if immigrants are more needy than non-immigrants. I don't know if they were referring to legal immigrants. I do know that different classes of legal immigrants pay different tax rates, have different access to financial/health/other services (and I don't mean government benefits, I mean stuff they can privately buy, do, take advantage of) etc.

So maybe their statements are premature, maybe they're not. Unless I understand their basis I can't really decide. I'm happy that at least we can discuss these issues without being accused of opposing the Church, though...
__________________
From the age of pharaohs through myriad mutations of the enduring human inclination to oppress and exclude through unjust remuneration, the basic justification has remained unchanged. It is the fear, affected or real, propounded by countless leaders, scholars, and statesman, that extending justice to all, will lead to national impoverishment and decline. Cyclical retelling of the Exodus story among people of faith serves to celebrate the role of God's saving justice in the human cycle of oppression and redemption. It also serves as an admonition to be on the right side of this story in every age and time.
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  #30  
Old Jun 29, '12, 11:56 am
Elizabeth502 Elizabeth502 is offline
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Default Re: Bishops Urge Congress to Fix Health Care Law Flaws After Ruling

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
I'm not saying they are never wrong, I'm simply saying that the only time their 'wrongness' comes up for real discussion here is when they make statements that, to be perfectly frank, are not in line with the stances of the political right.

Otherwise, it's "the bishops disagree...therefore what you think/state/suggest must be wrong". I've been there a thousand times, most recently in a debate on the morning-after-pill.
Don't equate me with "the political right." I only object to any bishop's or bishops' statements on current legislation (or proposals) when those statements are based partly on objective inaccuracies. The bishops are educated men. They know, or should know, the importance of educating oneself before you issue a statement influencing millions of people. I think that sometimes what happens is that they forget the educating part and concentrate instead on their other proper role, which is that of advocacy. Not only are they properly advocates (of Church moral positions), so are all Christians supposed to be. We should all advocate for the poor, for example: that is one of Jesus' commands. It's how we advocate that, what form that takes, that can be judged differentially among educated people as to what kind of support will be most effective for the poor.

So I can't respect a position from anyone, no matter what kind of collar he or she is or is not wearing, that is clearly based on insufficient research, old data, stereotyped categories, etc. And that insufficient research becomes evident in the language and definitions and equivalencies being declared by such person or persons.

Quote:
I don't know if immigrants are more needy than non-immigrants.
I do know that many non-immigrants are more needy, and far more deprived of options to redress that neediness and lack of opportunity, than many immigrants (including many illegal immigrants). I know because I work in such communities. The bishops have been wrong often on some very basic economic facts about immigration, including economic consequences of that which have a direct bearing on Catholic social justice doctrine.
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