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  #1  
Old Jun 29, '12, 5:06 am
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Boulder257 Boulder257 is offline
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Default SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...tion-document/

Last line about Bishop Williamson is interesting.
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  #2  
Old Jun 29, '12, 6:57 am
Melchior_ Melchior_ is offline
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

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Originally Posted by Boulder257 View Post
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...tion-document/

Last line about Bishop Williamson is interesting.
Unless a miracle happens, I think it's safe to say that His Grace Williamson won't be coming back anytime soon.
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  #3  
Old Jun 29, '12, 7:13 am
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

It just an internal communication between leaders, as summarized by a news agency. Even then it only says that certain elements of one draft of the preamble were unacceptable.

I think excluding Bishop Williamson is wise, and an obvious consequence for his behavior following the lifting of his excommunication. Also, I don't know much about the SSPX superior, Bishop Fellay, but I was quite impressed by an interview he gave online, which put the whole organization in a better light for me.
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  #4  
Old Jun 29, '12, 7:26 am
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

This is not surprising. Every unification effort by the Church results in breakage in the reuniting group. Not all traditional Anglicans entered the ordinariate. When Eastern Churches went into union with Rome, not all did so and many remained Orthodox. It's not surprising that there will be those in the SSPX who would not accept what the Church offers and their group will be split.
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  #5  
Old Jun 29, '12, 9:22 am
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

Time to move on... They are now just another protestant church. It pains me to have to say that
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  #6  
Old Jun 29, '12, 9:42 am
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
This is not surprising. Every unification effort by the Church results in breakage in the reuniting group. Not all traditional Anglicans entered the ordinariate. When Eastern Churches went into union with Rome, not all did so and many remained Orthodox. It's not surprising that there will be those in the SSPX who would not accept what the Church offers and their group will be split.
ITA.

Fellay probably realized that even if he came over a majority of the SPPX would not. Effectively diluting whatever a small group of SPPX could have done for the Church.

AC is a perfect example. It has sort of fizzled. Predictions of hundreds of thousands of converts have turned into a very disappointing 5000 or less. When push came to shove many of those professing to want to join the Ordinate backed out. Look at what happened to the Anglican church in Hollywood.
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  #7  
Old Jun 29, '12, 10:35 am
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

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Originally Posted by Melchior_ View Post
Unless a miracle happens, I think it's safe to say that His Grace Williamson won't be coming back anytime soon.
I am thinking that if SSPX returns Williamson will go schizmatic or even join the odd SSPV.
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  #8  
Old Jun 29, '12, 1:02 pm
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

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Originally Posted by ringil View Post
I am thinking that if SSPX returns Williamson will go schizmatic or even join the odd SSPV.
Even if the all those within the SSPX reunite that does not mean any other bishop (or religious groups that are affiliated with them) besides Fellay will reunite. The other bishops have to enter into discussions with the Vatican on their own.
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  #9  
Old Jun 29, '12, 1:55 pm
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

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Originally Posted by Friar David, O.Carm View Post
Even if the all those within the SSPX reunite that does not mean any other bishop (or religious groups that are affiliated with them) besides Fellay will reunite. The other bishops have to enter into discussions with the Vatican on their own.
I didn't know that. I thought Fellay is the superior of the SSPX, though I know superior isn't the right word.

I knew they could reject his agreements but I thought that the "normative" course would be that if Fellay agrees- they agree.

I guess I was wrong.
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  #10  
Old Jun 29, '12, 3:49 pm
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

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Originally Posted by ringil View Post
I didn't know that. I thought Fellay is the superior of the SSPX, though I know superior isn't the right word.

I knew they could reject his agreements but I thought that the "normative" course would be that if Fellay agrees- they agree.

I guess I was wrong.
Normally a religious institute has a superior but that superior is not a bishop. The SSPX some how worked out that they have bishops. Bishop Fellay is the head, the others are just members. . .

. . . but bishops can not be members of a religious institute because of the obedience issue.

I believe that a letter was leaked that said that the SSPX talks only included the non-bishop members and bishop Fellay as the superior, the other bishops would have to enter into their own talks with the Vatican if they want to reunite.
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  #11  
Old Jun 29, '12, 6:47 pm
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

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Originally Posted by Friar David, O.Carm View Post
Normally a religious institute has a superior but that superior is not a bishop. The SSPX some how worked out that they have bishops. Bishop Fellay is the head, the others are just members. . .

. . . but bishops can not be members of a religious institute because of the obedience issue.

I believe that a letter was leaked that said that the SSPX talks only included the non-bishop members and bishop Fellay as the superior, the other bishops would have to enter into their own talks with the Vatican if they want to reunite.
That's different and adds a lot of complexities to this process.

If Fellay agrees I would hope that the others just agree as well.

I suspect Williamson will just do his own thing. Probably better that way in my book.
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  #12  
Old Jun 29, '12, 7:06 pm
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

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Originally Posted by GRATEFULONEjim View Post
Time to move on... They are now just another protestant church. It pains me to have to say that
Br. JR mentioned something similar starting at about this post:

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Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
Secondly, we must pay attention to the subtle words that have been used. The Apostolic See told the SSPX that if it refused the Preamble, it would lead to schism and laid the moral responsibility on the shoulders of Bishop Fellay.

They're won't go into schism because they walk. They will go into schism, because the pope can jettison them out. There are two ways of going into schism. The second is rarely used, but has been used. The way that it's done is that the faithful are told that if they support this group, they too are in schism and may not receive the sacraments from the Catholic Church until they reconcile with the Church's authorities.
The SSPX has been given a bazillion chances by the Pope and time and again they rebuff the efforts.

The SSPX seems to enjoy the ambiguous situation they're in now, but the Vatican is tired of it and wants one or the other (and it's not a hard question): Are you in or are you out? The SSPX keeps wanting to say yes ("we're Catholic") and no ("we don't agree with certain things").

I'd prefer them to come in (I'd prefer everyone to come into the Church), but we can't force them. If they don't want to come in, then by definition they're out.
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  #13  
Old Jun 29, '12, 9:27 pm
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

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Originally Posted by curlycool89 View Post
Br. JR mentioned something similar starting at about this post:


The SSPX has been given a bazillion chances by the Pope and time and again they rebuff the efforts.

The SSPX seems to enjoy the ambiguous situation they're in now, but the Vatican is tired of it and wants one or the other (and it's not a hard question): Are you in or are you out? The SSPX keeps wanting to say yes ("we're Catholic") and no ("we don't agree with certain things").

I'd prefer them to come in (I'd prefer everyone to come into the Church), but we can't force them. If they don't want to come in, then by definition they're out.
I agree.
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  #14  
Old Jun 29, '12, 10:02 pm
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

I am honestly starting to get angry with the SSPX. The Vatican has been more than generous in trying to reconcile with them but yet they keep being stubborn about it. All well, I guess all one can do is pray for the SSPX and the Vatican that they would reconcile.
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  #15  
Old Jun 30, '12, 12:14 am
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Default Re: SSPX letter indicates refusal of Vatican reconciliation effort

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Originally Posted by GRATEFULONEjim View Post
Time to move on... They are now just another protestant church. It pains me to have to say that
Neither point is really true. This article is nothing but speculation over a leaked memo about disagreement over one draft of the preamble out of many. No decision has yet been made. Just more squabbling. Even if they entered schism, they would still be Catholic, and still be priests. They would be a schismatic catholic church, not a protestant church.
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