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  #31  
Old Jun 19, '12, 8:35 am
LightBound LightBound is offline
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Default Re: If abortions were illegal, what would the punishment be for the mother who has one?

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Originally Posted by da_nolo View Post
Its the same as any other crime. my goodness use some imagination!

not sure what smiley might go there so i tried a few at the same time.

still the original post seemed opinion based. I gave an opinion.

in actuality the 70 something court ruling would be reversed and things would return 'legally' to what they were.

any added laws to develop a punishment would be limited and to whom ever writes it would discuss or explain the best means to go about it.
What? Use some imagination? You mean like make sure the woman and the doctor both wear a tin-foil hat so the police detective cannot read their minds that the intent is an abortion and not a D & C to resolve a missed abortion (retained miscarriage)? There is virtually no way to prove an early abortion was not the D & C procedure I just mentioned above.
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  #32  
Old Jun 19, '12, 8:08 pm
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da_nolo da_nolo is offline
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Default Re: If abortions were illegal, what would the punishment be for the mother who has one?

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Originally Posted by LightBound View Post
What? Use some imagination? You mean like make sure the woman and the doctor both wear a tin-foil hat so the police detective cannot read their minds that the intent is an abortion and not a D & C to resolve a missed abortion (retained miscarriage)? There is virtually no way to prove an early abortion was not the D & C procedure I just mentioned above.
well, if you used some imagination, then you may conclude that the manner in which a police force may investigate the criminal act of (procedural) abortion would be similar if not same as any other crime.

investigations would include:
undercover officers; cameras; voice recorders; confessions; witnesses; evidence (in whole); etc. that's what i meant. that the manner could have easily been discovered by you, instead of insisting on asking everyone.

see I like people to use their imaginations for that is how we solve problems. if we use them ourselves than self discovery may help our own understanding. please don't be upset, this is just how I think.

moving onward; if someone has a miscarriage - then THEY GO TO THE HOSPITAL. if they just want to have an abortion and it is illegal. they do it in the shadows of a back alley or some abandoned hall w/ a mob doctor. figuring out whats what would be easy. especially after pressing investigation works

furthermore when someone has a miscarriage - as you say they may have 'pieces' still remaining. while for a procedural abortion...the unborn child (in what ever form he/she may be in) IS STILL THERE. with everything else. perhaps there may be a manner in which that would not be, however I have not read on any such circumstance yet. I'll keep an open mind that it may.

there are reasons towards why miscarriages happen and all are present w/in the mother or in other words evidential w/in the the mother. how to examine this? warrant! may be difficult to get at first from liberal judges, however from conservatives...easier. a few more good fights and it would be required for judges to follow a standard guideline for accepting warrants.

of coarse in order to get here/there first. we need to acknowledge that abortion should be illegal and therefore becomes illegal.

all of this is just like "what to do after we beat nazi germany" we'll get to it when we get to it. otherwise we would not have (focused)won and we will not win. or so how I see it.

lets focus on the hypocritical genocide within this the U.S. and else where first. SO RALLY OURSELVES
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  #33  
Old Jun 19, '12, 9:05 pm
LightBound LightBound is offline
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Default Re: If abortions were illegal, what would the punishment be for the mother who has one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by da_nolo View Post
well, if you used some imagination, then you may conclude that the manner in which a police force may investigate the criminal act of (procedural) abortion would be similar if not same as any other crime.

investigations would include:
undercover officers; cameras; voice recorders; confessions; witnesses; evidence (in whole); etc. that's what i meant. that the manner could have easily been discovered by you, instead of insisting on asking everyone.

see I like people to use their imaginations for that is how we solve problems. if we use them ourselves than self discovery may help our own understanding. please don't be upset, this is just how I think.

moving onward; if someone has a miscarriage - then THEY GO TO THE HOSPITAL. if they just want to have an abortion and it is illegal. they do it in the shadows of a back alley or some abandoned hall w/ a mob doctor. figuring out whats what would be easy. especially after pressing investigation works

furthermore when someone has a miscarriage - as you say they may have 'pieces' still remaining. while for a procedural abortion...the unborn child (in what ever form he/she may be in) IS STILL THERE. with everything else. perhaps there may be a manner in which that would not be, however I have not read on any such circumstance yet. I'll keep an open mind that it may.

there are reasons towards why miscarriages happen and all are present w/in the mother or in other words evidential w/in the the mother. how to examine this? warrant! may be difficult to get at first from liberal judges, however from conservatives...easier. a few more good fights and it would be required for judges to follow a standard guideline for accepting warrants.

of coarse in order to get here/there first. we need to acknowledge that abortion should be illegal and therefore becomes illegal.

all of this is just like "what to do after we beat nazi germany" we'll get to it when we get to it. otherwise we would not have (focused)won and we will not win. or so how I see it.

lets focus on the hypocritical genocide within this the U.S. and else where first. SO RALLY OURSELVES
Okay, I get what you're saying now, but I will say that having had miscarriages, one doesn't just show up at the hospital when they have a regular doctor. They call him/her, have ultrasounds done in the office, lab work to check hormone levels to see if they rise or drop, and most doc's want you to keep a watch for bleeding to see if you pass all the fetal tissue. It's usually only with heavy bleeding or levels that don't drop that a D & C is necessitated and that is usually done at the outpatient surgery center that the doctor has privileges at (usually connected/in close proximity to the hospital). Not all abortions were done in "back alleys" with questionable doctors prior to Roe V Wade (actually the proabortion camp wants you to think this is the case for sympathy reasons), most abortions were done by licensed OB/GYNs who were sympathetic to the prochoice cause and would have their clients enter the office by the "back door", hence the term "back alley abortions", although they were done in the same manner as a D & C on a patient that had miscarried.
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  #34  
Old Jun 20, '12, 8:17 am
LightBound LightBound is offline
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Default Re: If abortions were illegal, what would the punishment be for the mother who has one?

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Originally Posted by LightBound View Post
Okay, I get what you're saying now, but I will say that having had miscarriages, one doesn't just show up at the hospital when they have a regular doctor. They call him/her, have ultrasounds done in the office, lab work to check hormone levels to see if they rise or drop, and most doc's want you to keep a watch for bleeding to see if you pass all the fetal tissue. It's usually only with heavy bleeding or levels that don't drop that a D & C is necessitated and that is usually done at the outpatient surgery center that the doctor has privileges at (usually connected/in close proximity to the hospital). Not all abortions were done in "back alleys" with questionable doctors prior to Roe V Wade (actually the proabortion camp wants you to think this is the case for sympathy reasons), most abortions were done by licensed OB/GYNs who were sympathetic to the prochoice cause and would have their clients enter the office by the "back door", hence the term "back alley abortions", although they were done in the same manner as a D & C on a patient that had miscarried.
Also, I wanted to add that there is what is called a "missed abortion", meaning that the baby has died in utero and for whatever reasons, the body has not begun to "deliver" the intact, but no long viable fetus on its own, so after an certain amount of time (usually less than a week), a D & C or other medical means is necessitated to allow the uterus to empty. Otherwise, the mom can become deathly ill from sepsis. Now, I could see (using my imagination) where an ultrasound, witnessed by the "authorities"must take place to ensure that it's actually a procedure to remove a deceased fetus instead of an abortion to end a viable pregnancy, but then the "authorities" will need some kind of training in diagnostic imaging so they "know" what to look for as far as viability (even some techs and doctors miss things on ultrasound). The whole of this could easily become a patient privacy and legal nightmare when it comes to an exam.......
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  #35  
Old Jun 20, '12, 11:35 am
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da_nolo da_nolo is offline
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Default Re: If abortions were illegal, what would the punishment be for the mother who has one?

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Originally Posted by LightBound View Post
Also, I wanted to add that there is what is called a "missed abortion", meaning that the baby has died in utero and for whatever reasons, the body has not begun to "deliver" the intact, but no long viable fetus on its own, so after an certain amount of time (usually less than a week), a D & C or other medical means is necessitated to allow the uterus to empty. Otherwise, the mom can become deathly ill from sepsis. Now, I could see (using my imagination) where an ultrasound, witnessed by the "authorities"must take place to ensure that it's actually a procedure to remove a deceased fetus instead of an abortion to end a viable pregnancy, but then the "authorities" will need some kind of training in diagnostic imaging so they "know" what to look for as far as viability (even some techs and doctors miss things on ultrasound). The whole of this could easily become a patient privacy and legal nightmare when it comes to an exam.......
absolutely, which is why most seem to believe that the issue of 'punishment' will not be similar to an actual crime, but more lenient to provide services towards a recovery in an open - "I'm not mad at you, but I'm disappointed" - environment.

thank you for sharing your experience, I am aware that the such is difficult at times for families that go through w/ that.

I don't know of all things that occur during miscarriages which sometimes cramp my style and imagination. so once more thank you.

IF an 'authority' is necessary - it would have to be (or at least best to be) an already trained individual. however, this may develop problems internally (for hospitals or where ever) creating something similar to internal investigations for cops.

so you are right that there are issues involved in this. just something to wrap our heads around. perhaps 'punishment' is not the right solution or implementation for writing abortion into law as illegal.

no worries, we'll think of something. =)

have a nice day
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  #36  
Old Jun 20, '12, 10:27 pm
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bearer bearer is offline
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Default Re: If abortions were illegal, what would the punishment be for the mother who has one?

IMHO, willful abortion is first degree murder.
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