Salvation by works alone?

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by agapedoulos

Both of us believe in the importance of faith and works. The difference is that non-catholics do not believe that our works cleanse our souls or merit our salvation (because scripture does not teach this).

I'm not aware of a Catholic teaching that "works cleanse our souls"...Do you have a source?
We do recognize works as gaining "merit" but only in the sense that we have been discussing here...That they demonstrate a proper and living faith. I would also add that, just like exercise strengthens the body (merits more health), works of mercy strengthen the Spirit (merits more grace) and turn us more fully and firmly toward God...It is a cyclic action. God starts it off and we cooperate...

That said, this is an important difference in understanding indeed...But I don't think we are as far apart as some think. It's kind of a different topic which gets to the idea of imputed or infused "righteousness", or "justification". Of course like any other topic like this the true understanding is often found in between the two extreme positions.
Fundamentally, Righteousness is "imputed" at conversion and baptism but it cannot end there. It must be "infused" through being immersed (baptizo) in the Holy Spirit so that the life of the Spirit "infuses" into us creating a new creature...

We read that salvation is a gift and praise God for His amazing love! I am amazed at his mercy and love, his kindness and amazing gift of salvation, this causes my soul to worship Him and I desire so much to serve Him (Romans 2:4 "Gods kindness leads us to repentance") I don't quite understand if you can love our Lord without acknowleging how richly He has blessed us by giving the gift of salvation (gift not based on our works..no one can boast). What greater kindnesss than that "while I was still a sinner Christ died for us" Romans 5:8, giving us salvation! I am trying to understand that.

Peace and love to you.

Amen Brother.

Peace
James

[agapedoulos]

Originally Posted by thenobes

Agapedoulos,

I believe it does teach this. That's why I remain Catholic.

First off look at what Paul says of works in Philippians 2:13. He says that God works within us both to will and to do. Thus the assent of the will is necessary but is a really work of God. But even though a work of God, it gives rise to our own works.
But I believe it is not the resulting works (actions) of ours by which we gain cleansing or merit, but rather through the assent of our will, allowing the Holy Spirit to work within us.

Remember we do not earn merit, that is, earn the "worthiness of reward", but rather are transformed by God as a gift into someone "worthy of reward".

[color="Red"]Don't understand what you mean with the above. The language you are using is not like any I have read in the Bible. I think you may be using Catholic language that I cannot understand. I do however, think that we may be saying very similar things. We both agree that we are saved by God's grace, it is a gift from Him and that we are tranformed by God who works in us..right? Perhaps by "not earning merit" you are saying the same thing we say,"we do not earn salvation it is a gift", then we workout our salvation knowing that God is doing the work of transformation in our souls Phil 2:13. I thought your position was that I work to make sure I have enough merits accumulated to get to heaven. This I don't see in scripture and I think can cause not only self-righteousness but the work then becomes tainted. It is done for self interest not in "denying ourselves". I think the Bible is much more clear and simple. Love God, believe in Jesus and if you do you will love your neighbor and you delight will be to do his work. For me I will focus on loving and staying in Worship of God. He wants us to know we have already attained eternal life. 1 John 5:13: These things I have written to you so that you that believe on the name of the Son of God,that ye may KNOW YOU HAVE eternal life.
Knowing this frees me up to work out of love not self-interest. Not saying that you are working out of self-interest to inherit the kingdom but there is a danger of that we see in Rev. 2:1-4 and Mathew 7:21-23.

Ok we both love God and our desire is to obey so now the test that Jesus taught: You will know them by this, that they have love one for another. I greet you with a brotherly kiss and peace to you. COLOR]


That's why merit is a gift. As we are transformedi into images of Christ, we internally merit the reward of Heaven by our increased ability to persevere.

As for the Holy Spirit cleansing us from attachments to things,what else is the renewing of our minds but this?

peace
steve

[Qoeleth]

Originally Posted by Contarini

It's not "possibly." It's exactly what Augustine criticized Pelagius for teaching.

That's true. But remember, Augustine himself, in his strong reaction to Pelagianism, actually went too far (as far as Catholic orthodoxy are concerned) the other way- in advocting pre-destination in his late works.

[Contarini]

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

That's true. But remember, Augustine himself, in his strong reaction to Pelagianism, actually went too far (as far as Catholic orthodoxy are concerned) the other way- in advocting pre-destination in his late works.

Augustine himself has never been condemned, actually. But certainly the mainstream of Catholic thought these days has backed off from Augustine quite a bit.

That doesn't change the point I was making, though. The reason I brought in Augustine at all is simply because one can question whether he was fair to Pelagius. The heresy of "Pelagianism," condemned by the Church, is a heresy whose boundaries were primarily established by Augustine. And this heresy has been condemned over and over. And one of its key tenets is precisely the position you articulated--that "grace" consists of being "shown the way." Whether Pelagius actually believed this himself or not, anyone who does believe it is certainly a material heretic.

Edwin

[thenobes]

Originally Posted by agapedoulos

I thought your position was that I work to make sure I have enough merits accumulated to get to heaven. This I don't see in scripture and I think can cause not only self-righteousness but the work then becomes tainted. It is done for self interest not in "denying ourselves". I think the Bible is much

James says that our faith must be fruitful. (Faith without works is dead).

And Peter says:
"5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

But are these qualities and works not gifts of God.? Do they not produce dispositions within us to follow the will of God?

And if we are changed, are we not aided in our perseverance?

But I believe you are asking: "Should this be called merit?"

Yes, I say because these qualities added to us are forming us to the image of Christ. This formation is an inherent source of worthiness of reward within us,since Christ Himself will rule as a reward for His obedience.

How much of Christ do you believe you become as a member of His Church? Remember Christ asked Paul "Why do you persecute Me?", and nort, "Why do you persecute my Church?" He sid you will be in Him as He is in the Father and The Father is in Him.
John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

I understand the self-interest point, but ultimately, isn't every move we make from self-interest? Love is the ultimate self interest, isn't it? But even love is done to gain pleasure from the closer presence of the beloved. (Alright it can be done to avoid the loss of the presence of the beloved as well.) It depends rather what we love, where we look for in the end to find our ultimate self-interest.

Do we look to the one who created us and the world,or do we ignore Him and run after His creation?

Or is it that God moves us to see Mercy as an ultimate goal and through that, to seek after the source of Mercy itself?

peace
steve

The depth of this is incredible.

[agapedoulos]

Originally Posted by thenobes

James says that our faith must be fruitful. (Faith without works is dead).
Agreed.
And Peter says:
"5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Love this verse. As a child of God I must be about my Father's business and do not want to be ineffective.

But are these qualities and works not gifts of God.? Do they not produce dispositions within us to follow the will of God?
Agree they are gifts from God. Not sure they produce dispositions to follow the will of God...again Rev. 2. I think worship and loving God produces disposition to follow His will.

And if we are changed, are we not aided in our perseverance?


But I believe you are asking: "Should this be called merit?"

Yes, I say because these qualities added to us are forming us to the image of Christ. This formation is an inherent source of worthiness of reward within us,since Christ Himself will rule as a reward for His obedience.
I think we can easily loose track. Yes we are being formed into the imageof Christ but is it from the outside in or inside out? My experience has been that the day I surrendered my life to Jesus I felt the Holy Spirits peace who immediately changed my heart. A change of heart then resulted in love for others and a desire to serve God "circumcision made without hands". Perhaps you agree God does an inside work first that is grace (I'm not sure the term you use), but then works are the means by which God changes us into His image and you call that merit? I don't know that works do any good if it does not come out of a heart firmly planted in love for God. We can feed the hungry and not love God right? I think you agree loving God is first but I think that even when we initially love God we can leave our first love Rev. 2 and still perform works that will have no effect, therefore I don't believe works without loving God are "meritous".

How much of Christ do you believe you become as a member of His Church? Remember Christ asked Paul "Why do you persecute Me?", and nort, "Why do you persecute my Church?" He sid you will be in Him as He is in the Father and The Father is in Him.
John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

I understand the self-interest point, but ultimately, isn't every move we make from self-interest? Love is the ultimate self interest, isn't it? But even love is done to gain pleasure from the closer presence of the beloved. (Alright it can be done to avoid the loss of the presence of the beloved as well.) It depends rather what we love, where we look for in the end to find our ultimate self-interest.
I don't know. I can reason with myself or I can "Come reason with me says the Lord" Isa. 1:18 Reasoning with God on this topic I find 1:Cor 13:1-8 as well as Romans 12:10 and others, but I think this road is not edifying for me at this moment. I need to concentrate on my relationship and love for God and He can work that all out in my heart.



Do we look to the one who created us and the world,or do we ignore Him and run after His creation?

Or is it that God moves us to see Mercy as an ultimate goal and through that, to seek after the source of Mercy itself?

My personal experience is that I simply want more of God and I know from Scripture that disobedience will hinder my relationship with Him. So I obey because I love and want to know Him more. My ultimate goal is to draw near to him and I have found that when I obey and work out of this love, it yeilds so much joy. Joy not in my part (pride)but in how amazing His ways are. His ways are higher than my own. I become amazed that He had a wonderful plan in my obedience. Is this what you term merit? Perhaps, but my issue is with this idea that humans can accumulate merit points that can save you and that if you have accumulated more points than necessarry then it goes into "treasury of Merit" that only the Catholic Church clergy can dispense. Seems all so political to me and above all I don't see this idea in scripture. Bottom line is that anyone who has been given the gift of the Holy Spirit is a child of God and as a child we are brothers and sisters in the Church of Christ. Does not matter what denomination you are from. The reason I am on this thread is that I was raised Catholic and its system of penance always confused me. I would confess and then be told to say "three hail mary's" then my sin will be taken away. Why this would be enough was beyond me. When I began to read the Bible I saw nothing of the kind. Instead I saw Jesus who made things simple (his burden is light) and condemned the Pharisees for their commplicated system that prevented people from getting in (Luke 11:53). So I'm trying to understand but above all I seek God's truth not man's wisdom. I also seek to love alll those who love God.

peace
steve

The depth of this is incredible.

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by agapedoulos

Is this what you term merit? Perhaps, but my issue is with this idea that humans can accumulate merit points that can save you and that if you have accumulated more points than necessary then it goes into "treasury of Merit" that only the Catholic Church clergy can dispense.

I agree that there is confusion that comes about from how the Catholic Church uses terms like "merit" and "profitable" and such. These are things that are often seen in term of exchange, wages and the like...But they need not be.

Such terms, as I understand them really spring from a desire on our part to be worthy.
To use a Scriptural reference, the Father who tells his two sons to go work in the field and one says no - but repents and goes while the other says yes, but then disobeys. Which of the two is more "Worthy" of the father. Which has grown "merit" in the eyes and love of the Father? And perhaps most importantly, which will become the better man...The one who has "accumulated merit" (grown in holiness) or the one who has squandered the opportunity....

In an different example...Suppose that you hire two people to do the same job. The one does the work for which he is paid, but no more...The other likewise does the work but takes on more, is always cheerful, has good suggestions for improvements, helpful to others etc...Neither of the employees grouses or feels they are unjustly compensated.
Soon an opportunity develops for a promotion and it is between these two very capable people.
Which employee will you select? Will it not be the one with more "merit" - is more "worthy"? Even though they have not lobbied for he job, even though they have not indicated an expectation of reward for the extra things they do, the fact remains that, in your mind as their superior, this person has "accumulated merit" with you....
Something quite different from "wages"

This may not be the best explanation, but it might give you just a little insight into how we think of "merit" as it relates to our spiritual life.

Peace
James

[kempo1]

In Mathew 19:v17 when the Lord said if you want to enter into life keep my commandments doesn't keeping the commandments require good works? So i would believe those works apparently have great merit to God if Jesus commanded you to do them or why else wpuld he say this. Then a couple verses down he tells him to sell all his belongings and give them to the poor which is another work and pick up the his cross and follow him. All things mentioned require action on the believers part. Though we all agree our faith in Christ is what saves us we see in scripture over and over that christ requires action on our part to reveal our faith outwardly so we may be an example to non believers.

[agapedoulos]

Originally Posted by JRKH

I agree that there is confusion that comes about from how the Catholic Church uses terms like "merit" and "profitable" and such. These are things that are often seen in term of exchange, wages and the like...But they need not be.

Such terms, as I understand them really spring from a desire on our part to be worthy.
To use a Scriptural reference, the Father who tells his two sons to go work in the field and one says no - but repents and goes while the other says yes, but then disobeys. Which of the two is more "Worthy" of the father. Which has grown "merit" in the eyes and love of the Father? And perhaps most importantly, which will become the better man...The one who has "accumulated merit" (grown in holiness) or the one who has squandered the opportunity....

In an different example...Suppose that you hire two people to do the same job. The one does the work for which he is paid, but no more...The other likewise does the work but takes on more, is always cheerful, has good suggestions for improvements, helpful to others etc...Neither of the employees grouses or feels they are unjustly compensated.
Soon an opportunity develops for a promotion and it is between these two very capable people.
Which employee will you select? Will it not be the one with more "merit" - is more "worthy"? Even though they have not lobbied for he job, even though they have not indicated an expectation of reward for the extra things they do, the fact remains that, in your mind as their superior, this person has "accumulated merit" with you....
Something quite different from "wages"

This may not be the best explanation, but it might give you just a little insight into how we think of "merit" as it relates to our spiritual life.

Peace
James

Thank you James for trying to help me. I do not deny the fact that works are required, after all we were "created unto good works". The parable of the talents highlights the importance of good works and obedience. If we have faith, then to serve Him should be my most sincere desire. Again its the system of how much "merit" is acceptable for salvation that I fail to understand. I see in the parable of talents that each servant had a different amount and was accepted. Only the servant with no amount (no desire, no obedience) was cast out (perhaps this describes a person who says they have faith but really do not, otherwise they would obey and serve God..I don't know I'm not a theologian). I think that God has a very different plan in how He wants to use each of us so I cannot compare the works he has planned for me to the ones he has for others (John 21:22.) I (nor can any man or clergy) can deem my works to have more merit and the works of others not enough, I should only be faithful to the work He prompts me to do. Who knows what God has required of each one of us? What do you think of the parable of the prodigal son? Why was he accepted by the father? When do the angels rejoice? Did he earn his way or was he was forgiven by a loving father? I'm sure if the story went on the prodigal son workd and was very fruitful. But why do you think he will now work? To please the father to work his way in? Did not father grant him this through GRACE? Or out of love and gratitude? Work comes out of a grateful, forgiven heart right (Luke 7:47) I understand the beauty in having a heart like the one you describe Catholics emphasizing. A heart of service...awesome. My issue again is with a treasury of merits that the Catholic Church dispenses to those that did not have enough to earn salvation. I don't see that any man is able to judge the work of another to decide if that person had enough or not. How does the Catholic Church know how much merit is left in the bank? I don't understand this system at all. Do you? If that system is really the system of God, then Catholics should be very energized to tell people about it, lest we all (non Catholics) perish. This system seems like a different gospel than the one Paul taught and now we are saved not my only the name of Jesus (Acts 4:12) but by the name of all saints. Paul taught us not enter into any other Gospel than the one He preached (Book of Galatians). Did Paul preach a treasury of merits? Perhaps I just really don't understand and am alarmed that it may be a different gospel based on my failure to understand but if this is really so, then we must know. Do you know of a place in Scripture where this is taught?

Sorry to bug so much and appreciate your time and patience.

Love you Brother!

[thenobes]

I have to comment on this one point. Otherwise I think we are more in agreement than disagreement.

Originally Posted by agapedoulos

Joy not in my part (pride)but in how amazing His ways are. His ways are higher than my own. I become amazed that He had a wonderful plan in my obedience. Is this what you term merit? Perhaps, but my issue is with this idea that humans can accumulate merit points that can save you and that if you have accumulated more points than necessarry then it goes into "treasury of Merit" that only the Catholic Church clergy can dispense. Seems all so political to me and above all I don't see this idea in scripture. Bottom line is that anyone who has been given the gift of the Holy Spirit is a child of God and as a child we are brothers and sisters in the Church of Christ.

Agapedoulos,

I enjoy conversing with you, but I'd like to clear up a confusion about indulgences and merit. The merit transferred in indulgences is only to those already persevering in salvation, that is, that have an active faith. It does not bring to salvation those who are not. In a way, indulgences are a sharing by the saints in the sufferings you would undergo to cleanse your soul of attachments to temporal goods. But you have to be saved to be allowed to undergo cleansing at all.

I believe that it is the Catholic Church that dispenses it, but it so happens that the hierarchy are the ones to officially establish dispensations of merit.

However, even if they are the only ones allowed to dipense, and I'm not 100% sure of that, they have set many ways to receive indulgences, for instance, one for reading the Bible for 15 min.


-From Wikipedia (because I'm too lazy to go to NewAdvent )

In Catholic theology, an indulgence is the full or partial remission of temporal punishment[1] due for sins which have already been forgiven. The indulgence is granted by the Catholic Church after the sinner has confessed and received absolution.[2] An indulgence is thus not forgiveness of sin nor release from the eternal punishment associated with hell in Christian beliefs.[3]


[1] Temporal Punishment = Cleansing of attachments to sin.
[2] Code of Canon Law, (Cann. 992–997) Indulgences; Enchiridion Indulgentiarum, 4th ed., 1999.
[3] "Myths about Indulgences". Catholic Answers.


peace
steve

[JRKH]

agapedoulos,

I love you too brother...

To be honest...I don't know a lot about indulgences, treasury of merit and the like. Hopefully others might be able to shed some light on the matter of the specific teaching and how it all might fit together.
Upon reading a little bit about it it sort of sounds like a logical "explanation" of something that we cannot fully understand.
About the only thing that I can do is to offer you something personal from my life.

My dear lady is suffering from Alzheimer's. There is no doubt but that she is undergoing her purgation now. That said, in my love for her I do not wish for her to suffer any more than she has to. Therefore I have prayed to our Good Lord that if I have any merit before Him - as little as it might be - to give that merit to my dear wife. I say that with a hear that does not care if I have "not enough" for myself. I would still give it to her and gladly.

Now I do not say this to brag or to appear saintly for I most assuredly am not. But I describe this to you to illustrate how Love - deep, abiding and unselfish Love - wants to be given away. This Love that we give away is the "merit" - or the grace if you prefer - that comes back to us. Then if we give that away, we may receive more...(those who have receive more...)until our "cup runs over"...
But that which runs over is not wasted, and we do not "store up" treasure - but keep using it and spreading it around.

The idea of the "treasury of merit" strikes me as an analogy - a way of explaining this so that we can understand it. At least that is how it seems to this very simple Catholic.

Peace
James

[agapedoulos]

Originally Posted by thenobes

I have to comment on this one point. Otherwise I think we are more in agreement than disagreement.



Agapedoulos,

I enjoy conversing with you, but I'd like to clear up a confusion about indulgences and merit. The merit transferred in indulgences is only to those already persevering in salvation, that is, that have an active faith. It does not bring to salvation those who are not. In a way, indulgences are a sharing by the saints in the sufferings you would undergo to cleanse your soul of attachments to temporal goods. But you have to be saved to be allowed to undergo cleansing at all.

I believe that it is the Catholic Church that dispenses it, but it so happens that the hierarchy are the ones to officially establish dispensations of merit.



However, even if they are the only ones allowed to dipense, and I'm not 100% sure of that, they have set many ways to receive indulgences, for instance, one for reading the Bible for 15 min.


-From Wikipedia (because I'm too lazy to go to NewAdvent )

In Catholic theology, an indulgence is the full or partial remission of temporal punishment[1] due for sins which have already been forgiven. The indulgence is granted by the Catholic Church after the sinner has confessed and received absolution.[2] An indulgence is thus not forgiveness of sin nor release from the eternal punishment associated with hell in Christian beliefs.[3]


[1] Temporal Punishment = Cleansing of attachments to sin.
[2] Code of Canon Law, (Cann. 992–997) Indulgences; Enchiridion Indulgentiarum, 4th ed., 1999.
[3] "Myths about Indulgences". Catholic Answers.


peace
steve

Thank you for your reply and your willingness to converse with me. I enjoy conversing with you too. I am very glad that I entered into this conversation with all the Catholics who have responded to me (I do not do this often). I have grown to appreciate and love you more and there has not been a drive to prove eachother wrong in your part or mine and for that I am grateful. We have tried to understand eachother and tried to together understand God's word better. Thank you. Although I still do not understand indulgences or think they are Biblical I do see that we share a heart for the Lord and I feel united to you as brothers and sisters (PS. while many have assumed I am a brother, I am actually your sister-in-the-Lord ). Many blessings to you and may the Lord continue to bless you and may we draw close to him daily!

Agape,
Estela

[agapedoulos]

Originally Posted by JRKH

agapedoulos,

I love you too brother...

To be honest...I don't know a lot about indulgences, treasury of merit and the like. Hopefully others might be able to shed some light on the matter of the specific teaching and how it all might fit together.
Upon reading a little bit about it it sort of sounds like a logical "explanation" of something that we cannot fully understand.
About the only thing that I can do is to offer you something personal from my life.

My dear lady is suffering from Alzheimer's. There is no doubt but that she is undergoing her purgation now. That said, in my love for her I do not wish for her to suffer any more than she has to. Therefore I have prayed to our Good Lord that if I have any merit before Him - as little as it might be - to give that merit to my dear wife. I say that with a hear that does not care if I have "not enough" for myself. I would still give it to her and gladly.

Now I do not say this to brag or to appear saintly for I most assuredly am not. But I describe this to you to illustrate how Love - deep, abiding and unselfish Love - wants to be given away. This Love that we give away is the "merit" - or the grace if you prefer - that comes back to us. Then if we give that away, we may receive more...(those who have receive more...)until our "cup runs over"...
But that which runs over is not wasted, and we do not "store up" treasure - but keep using it and spreading it around.

The idea of the "treasury of merit" strikes me as an analogy - a way of explaining this so that we can understand it. At least that is how it seems to this very simple Catholic.

Peace
James

James,
Thank you for your patience and willingness to understand God's word with me. I appreciate your kindness and have really come to love and appreciate Catholics more through your kindness and help. I love that we share a common goal to love God and or Savior Jesus Christ and that we desire to serve Him. Although I don't understand or believe the indulgences are Biblical, this has become less important. We are brethren in Christ and first of all is our love for eachother because we belong to the same family. I pray that your wife is daily being strengthened by the presence of Jesus even through her suffering. I pray that Jesus gives you the peace that surpasseth all understanding. You are a loving and humble servant of God and I pray he makes his presence so powerful to you in this time. You reveal your loving heart when you pray for your merit to help your wife go through less pain. You are a loving and humble man.

May our Lord strengthen you and fill you with the peace that surpasess all understanding.

Agape,
Estela