Catechism paragraph 841 Muslims

[Godfollower]

Originally Posted by SonCatcher

They were martyred by Protestants.

St. Francis is recorded to have recognized Muslim claims to worship the God of Abraham and likely faced martyrdom at their hands.

Yes, they were martyred by Protestants. And "The plan of salvation also includes [Protestants]; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Catholics and Protestants worship the same God, even if we torture and kill each other. Therefore, the fact of torturing and killing Christians isn't what determines whether a particular person worships the same God we do.

[dzheremi]

Originally Posted by Godfollower

If Christians torture and kill each other in the name of Jesus, then it stands to reason that the "Muslims don't worship God because they kill Christians" argument is a fallacy, yes?

Yes, but I don't think that's what Mickey wrote. He wrote that he knows of no instance in which those Orthodox Christians martyred by Muslims professed that the two groups worship the same God. I'm not really surprised at that. I haven't heard anything like that, either, since establishing who or what others worship is not really a part of Orthodox theology.

[Godfollower]

Originally Posted by dzheremi

Yes, but I don't think that's what Mickey wrote. He wrote that he knows of no instance in which those Orthodox Christians martyred by Muslims professed that the two groups worship the same God. I'm not really surprised at that. I haven't heard anything like that, either, since establishing who or what others worship is not really a part of Orthodox theology.

Okay; I guess that's just the perils of internet debating, and the inability to convey tone. I took

Originally Posted by Mickey

I have never seen a situation where the martyr....after being arrested, imprisoned, and systematically and gruesomely tortured for the sake of Christ before being murdered.......has claimed that those who were doing the torturing and murdering worshipped the same God.

to be an argument that your martyring of me means you worship a different God. I was just showing a counter-example in the Christians-killing-Christians context. If that's not what Mickey meant, then I stand corrected and apologize.

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by dzheremi

Yes, but I don't think that's what Mickey wrote. He wrote that he knows of no instance in which those Orthodox Christians martyred by Muslims professed that the two groups worship the same God. I'm not really surprised at that. I haven't heard anything like that, either, since establishing who or what others worship is not really a part of Orthodox theology.

Correct. The "muslim same God theory" is a relatively new teaching. Here is an example of a couple things those martyrs did say:

“I have gone to your Mecca and have examined all of your faith, and I have understood that everything about it is false and abominable.”
(The Martyr, St Alexander the dervish +1794)

"Your faith was not given by God, but by a simple man named Muhammad, whereas our Orthodox Christian religion was given to us directly by God through Jesus Christ."
(The Neo-Martyr St Dimitrii from Sliven, Bulgaria +1841)

"What good does your faith [Islam] have when it is deception, falsehood, myth, error..."
(The Neo-Martyr St Christos the boatman from Preveza, Greece---killed my the Muslims in 1668)

[SonCatcher]

Originally Posted by Godfollower

Yes, they were martyred by Protestants. And "The plan of salvation also includes [Protestants]; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Catholics and Protestants worship the same God, even if we torture and kill each other. Therefore, the fact of torturing and killing Christians isn't what determines whether a particular person worships the same God we do.

Protestants are discussed in paragraph 838:

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."

It really isn't fitting to substitute them into a paragraph about a clearly lesser connection.

[Godfollower]

Originally Posted by Mickey

Correct. The "muslim same God theory" is a relatively new teaching. Here is an example of a couple things those martyrs did say:

“I have gone to your Mecca and have examined all of your faith, and I have understood that everything about it is false and abominable.”
(The Martyr, St Alexander the dervish +1794)

"Your faith was not given by God, but by a simple man named Muhammad, whereas our Orthodox Christian religion was given to us directly by God through Jesus Christ."
(The Neo-Martyr St Dimitrii from Sliven, Bulgaria +1841)

"What good does your faith [Islam] have when it is deception, falsehood, myth, error..."
(The Neo-Martyr St Christos the boatman from Preveza, Greece---killed my the Muslims in 1668)

Come on. You know that not "all" of their faith is false. They teach that there's only one God. They teach that rape is wrong. They teach that idolatry is wrong. They teach that helping the poor is good. They teach that healing the sick is good. Those parts of their faith, however imperfectly put, are correct.

There is, as the Catholic Church teaches, some truth in Islam. Not nearly as much truth as there is in the Catholic Church, but some truth.

One of those truths is that they adore God. That's all 841 says. It doesn't say that Islam is equal to Christianity, or good, or true, or anything else. Just that they adore God.

[Godfollower]

Originally Posted by SonCatcher

Protestants are discussed in paragraph 838:

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."

It really isn't fitting to substitute them into a paragraph about a clearly lesser connection.

It simply makes the point that we worship the same God, even if we torture and kill each other. It isn't demeaning to describe them that way, and it certainly isn't meant to be hurtful.

[jam070406]

Originally Posted by Godfollower

Come on. You know that not "all" of their faith is false. They teach that there's only one God. They teach that rape is wrong. They teach that idolatry is wrong. They teach that helping the poor is good. They teach that healing the sick is good. Those parts of their faith, however imperfectly put, are correct.

There is, as the Catholic Church teaches, some truth in Islam. Not nearly as much truth as there is in the Catholic Church, but some truth.

One of those truths is that they adore God. That's all 841 says. It doesn't say that Islam is equal to Christianity, or good, or true, or anything else. Just that they adore God.

They don't have Faith. Read Dominis Iesus.
Faith results in belief of the Trinity.

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by Godfollower

Come on. You know that not "all" of their faith is false.

Really?

Originally Posted by Godfollower

They teach that there's only one God.

But it is not the Trinitarian God.

Originally Posted by Godfollower

They teach that rape is wrong.

Atheists believe that also.

Originally Posted by Godfollower

They teach that idolatry is wrong.

They say that we are idol worshippers with our Icons.

Originally Posted by Godfollower

They teach that helping the poor is good.

Atheists believe that.

Originally Posted by Godfollower

They teach that healing the sick is good.

Atheists believe that.

Originally Posted by Godfollower

Those parts of their faith, however imperfectly put, are correct.

Those things are a part of basic morality and have nothing to do with the premise of this thread.

Originally Posted by Godfollower

There is, as the Catholic Church teaches, some truth in Islam.

Such as?

Originally Posted by Godfollower

Not nearly as much truth as there is in the Catholic Church, but some truth.

If there is any truth at all......some truth mixed with lies....is still a falsehood.

Originally Posted by Godfollower

One of those truths is that they adore God.

Not the same God as the Christians.

Originally Posted by Godfollower

That's all 841 says.

Yeah...that is the contention here.

Originally Posted by Godfollower

It doesn't say that Islam is equal to Christianity, or good, or true, or anything else. Just that they adore God.

Not the Trinitarian God.


1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

[Godfollower]

Originally Posted by Mickey

Really?
But it is not the Trinitarian God.

News flash: there's only ONE God. There isn't a Trinitarian God, and a Jewish God, and a Muslim God, and so on. There's only one God. He is Trinitarian; so if you deny that you're mistaken. But you aren't worshipping some other God. Your argument basically boils down to polytheism: I worship Jesus, while you worship God the Father; and that guy worships the Holy Spirit, while those guys over there worship Zeus.

Originally Posted by Mickey

Atheists believe that also.
They say that we are idol worshippers with our Icons.
Atheists believe that.
Atheists believe that.
Those things are a part of basic morality and have nothing to do with the premise of this thread.

No, they illustrate that there is some truth in the Koran.

Originally Posted by Mickey

Such as?

Well, for starters, there is only one God.

Originally Posted by Mickey

If there is any truth at all......some truth mixed with lies....is still a falsehood.

No, it's truth mixed with lies. The Catholic Church does not teach that the Koran is true. She only teaches that some statements in it are true. Just as some statements contained on CAF are true, while others are not.

Originally Posted by Mickey

Not the same God as the Christians.

Sure, if you believe in multiple Gods. But at that point you aren't Christian, either.

Originally Posted by Mickey

Yeah...that is the contention here.
Not the Trinitarian God.

Would you mind identifying the other God that they worship? Is he omnipotent, too? If I blaspheme against their God rather than my God, can he smite me?

The only God who can be worshipped is the real one. That's whom they adore. Imperfectly, yes; but they adore Him.

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.[/quote]

The Jews deny Jesus' divinity. By your mis-interpretation of that passage, you are arguing that Jews worship a different God than Christians. And that is theologically impossible, as Jesus stated to the Jews that the God they worship -- the Father -- is Jesus Himself.

[Michael Francis]

Due to declining charity this thread is now closed.