"God exists"- an algebraic perspective - Page 2

ThinkingSapien · #16 May 19, '12, 7:59 am

I think what is being hit on here is something that is a much more ubiquitous communication obstacle. There are many key words and idioms to which this could be applied: God, faith, answered prayers, believe in, and so on. The meaning of some of these phrases varies not only from one religion to another but some times from one denomination to another and at times from one person to another that are within the same denomination. I think it's common for people to assume that every one else means the same things and applies the same attributes to the concepts of discussions.

A few days ago an indian man was trying to leave the parking lot at the same place I keep my car. He didn't realize it was a cash only lot, and when he went to exit he discovered he didn't have enough cash to pay his way out. So I hopped out of my car and paid his way out to save him a walk down the street to the nearest ATM. After I refused to allow him to try to send money to repay me back he said that "He would pray to his god/God for me." Most of the indians I know are polytheistic and use the word "God" in a different way than Christians do. I don't know what this man's religion was. So I also don't know what he meant when he said "god/God".

On a related note when asked "Do you believe in God" I usually reply with "which God and what do you mean by 'believe in'?" People asking that question are not always asking about Yahweh, and by "believe in" they don't always mean something that is related to "existence"

Charlemagne II · #17 May 20, '12, 10:14 am

As to defining God, that is not difficult for everyone to agree upon.

If you want to prove God exists, you do need to know what or whom you are talking about.

Most people of the monotheistic tradition are content to give God a working definition that can be fleshed out by both reason and revelation.

My own working definition would be:

"God is a Being who transcends the universe and is self sufficient and therefore eternal."

Seeking to prove the existence of such a Being I would start with the fact that God cannot be the universe itself because the universe appears to be neither self sufficient nor eternal. Then where does the universe come from, if not from the transcendent, self-sufficient, and eternal God?

This is basically the argument of Aquinas, though he does not phrase it specifically in these terms, choosing to rely instead on the idea of First Mover.

After affirming the likelihood that a Supreme Being exists upon which the universe depends for its existence, one can go on to discuss other likely or unlikely attributes of God. Again, natural reason is helpful here, but the complete picture cannot be given except by revelation.

Genesis, 1000 B.C. : “Let there be light.”

Carl Sagan in Cosmos, 1980 A.D.

“Ten or twenty billion years ago, something happened – the Big Bang, the event that began our universe…. In that titanic cosmic explosion, the universe began an expansion which has never ceased…. As space stretched, the matter and energy in the universe expanded with it and rapidly cooled. The radiation of the cosmic fireball, which, then as now, filled the universe, moved through the spectrum – from gamma rays to X-rays to ultraviolet light; through the rainbow colors of the visible spectrum; into the infrared and radio regions. The remnants of that fireball, the cosmic background radiation, emanating from all parts of the sky can be detected by radio telescopes today. In the early universe, space was brilliantly illuminated.”

Charlemagne II · #18 May 20, '12, 10:33 am

Thinking

On a related note when asked "Do you believe in God" I usually reply with "which God and what do you mean by 'believe in'?" People asking that question are not always asking about Yahweh, and by "believe in" they don't always mean something that is related to "existence"

Yes, with polytheism it is difficult to locate a supreme Deity. Even the Greek god Zeus was subject to the will of the Fates. All the gods seem to have been born at some time or another of one god or another, except the eternal, self-sufficient God of Abraham who would have no gods before Him.

ThinkingSapien · #19 May 20, '12, 11:44 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlemagne II

Yes, with polytheism it is difficult to locate a supreme Deity..

I wasn't just thinking of polytheism. I've heard phrases such as "I don't think that Jesus really existed, but I do believe in him." In that context to say that one "believes in" jesus has nothing to do with "existence." And I hear various uses of the phrase "believe in" like that all the time.

Now if some one heard this person making the declaration of "believing in" jesus I think it would be easy to form a false conclusion of what the person's disposition is.

Charlemagne II · #20 May 20, '12, 12:30 pm

Thinking

Now if some one heard this person making the declaration of "believing in" jesus I think it would be easy to form a false conclusion of what the person's disposition is.

That would apply to someone like Thomas Jefferson, who said he believed in Jesus, but only the Jesus stripped of miracles and Resurrection.

greylorn · #21 May 26, '12, 3:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

Let's consider the proposition "God exists". It would seem that there is no agreement on what either of the terms of the proposition signify- people evidently have different concepts of "God", and different concepts of "existence" (Platonists, materialists, Berkelian idealists, existentialists, Parmenedians, etc.).

Now, the lack of definite content for either of the terms would seem to mean that the proposition "God exists" makes determination of its truth analogous to trying to determine is the following equation correct, without having determined what X and Y actually equal:
X + Y = 5

Is this true? It depends upon what X and Y equal. And that is not given.

If a person chooses to accept that proposition, they can then define "God" and "exists" so that they equation holds true, e.g. "God"= that which is eternal and unchanging. "Exist"= being eternal and unchanging.

On the other hand, if a person chooses to reject the proposition, they then define "God" and "exists" in such a way as to make the equation untrue, e.g. "God"= a purely spiritual being outside the Universe. "Exists"= being as a material thing in the Universe.

So, it would appear that the debate on whether "God exists" is not of real substance. Rather the pertinent question would seem to be "what do we mean by 'God'?" and "what do we mean by 'exists'?"

It is therefore evident, I suggest, that the argument relates only to the definitions of the terms.

Otherwise, we are arguing whether X +Y= 10 is correct or not.

Your application of algebraic logic is incomplete, and does not make your point. The statement:

X + Y = 5

can be taken as correct at the outset, but only if X and Y co-exist within the space of real numbers. Then, defining either one sets the value for the other. (It would not do to define X=chickens and expect a sensible conversation to ensue.)

You cannot apply your simple algebraic logic to the statement, "God Exists," because both terms of the statement represent entirely different concepts. They are in what a mathematician might call, different spaces. God is a noun; Exists is a property. Furthermore, you seem to be treating a pair of ill-defined parameters as if they represented an equation. What is on the other side of your equal sign?

Your logic is therefore inapplicable to the problem you address.

Still, your thought process seems to involve some useful notions, such as the necessity to define "God" before addressing the problem. I've written this a dozen times or more on CAF, to little effect. Perhaps you will have better luck.