"He descended into hell" or "He descended to the dead"? - Page 3

zenith15 · #31 Feb 22, '12, 8:08 pm

Really am curious about this? Anyone?

MarkThompson · #32 Feb 22, '12, 8:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenith15

Really am curious about this? Anyone?

Well, they came from wherever they were. If they were in the Limbo Patrum, then that's where they came from.

mdgspencer · #33 Feb 24, '12, 3:06 am

St. Thomas Aquinas said the Elijah did not ascend into heaven but a different place that he called a paradise. Christ told his disciples that when he dies he will go to prepare a place for them in his Father's house, that is in heaven. He said he will go and prepare a place for them, so that they can go there too. (Jn 14:3). That is, they could not go to heaven before he went himself. This shows that people did not go to heaven before Christ died. And too the Old Testament does not show that there was generally faith in heaven in Israel.
That leaves us with the question, where did Elijah and Moses go when they died? The important thing here is that it was not heaven. The opinion of St. Thomas Aquinas is at least as good as any to where they went.

centurionguard · #34 Feb 24, '12, 7:30 am

From an ancient homily for Holy Saturday: The Lord's descent into Hell

http://www.vatican.va/spirit/documen...-santo_en.html

Quote:

The Lord's descent into hell

"What is happening? Today there is a great silence over the earth, a great silence, and stillness, a great silence because the King sleeps; the earth was in terror and was still, because God slept in the flesh and raised up those who were sleeping from the ages. God has died in the flesh, and the underworld has trembled.

Truly he goes to seek out our first parent like a lost sheep; he wishes to visit those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death. He goes to free the prisoner Adam and his fellow-prisoner Eve from their pains, he who is God, and Adam's son.

The Lord goes in to them holding his victorious weapon, his cross. When Adam, the first created man, sees him, he strikes his breast in terror and calls out to all: 'My Lord be with you all.' And Christ in reply says to Adam: ‘And with your spirit.’ And grasping his hand he raises him up, saying: ‘Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light.

‘I am your God, who for your sake became your son, who for you and your descendants now speak and command with authority those in prison: Come forth, and those in darkness: Have light, and those who sleep: Rise.

‘I command you: Awake, sleeper, I have not made you to be held a prisoner in the underworld. Arise from the dead; I am the life of the dead. Arise, O man, work of my hands, arise, you who were fashioned in my image. Rise, let us go hence; for you in me and I in you, together we are one undivided person.

‘For you, I your God became your son; for you, I the Master took on your form; that of slave; for you, I who am above the heavens came on earth and under the earth; for you, man, I became as a man without help, free among the dead; for you, who left a garden, I was handed over to Jews from a garden and crucified in a garden.

‘Look at the spittle on my face, which I received because of you, in order to restore you to that first divine inbreathing at creation. See the blows on my cheeks, which I accepted in order to refashion your distorted form to my own image.

'See the scourging of my back, which I accepted in order to disperse the load of your sins which was laid upon your back. See my hands nailed to the tree for a good purpose, for you, who stretched out your hand to the tree for an evil one.

`I slept on the cross and a sword pierced my side, for you, who slept in paradise and brought forth Eve from your side. My side healed the pain of your side; my sleep will release you from your sleep in Hades; my sword has checked the sword which was turned against you.

‘But arise, let us go hence. The enemy brought you out of the land of paradise; I will reinstate you, no longer in paradise, but on the throne of heaven. I denied you the tree of life, which was a figure, but now I myself am united to you, I who am life. I posted the cherubim to guard you as they would slaves; now I make the cherubim worship you as they would God.

"The cherubim throne has been prepared, the bearers are ready and waiting, the bridal chamber is in order, the food is provided, the everlasting houses and rooms are in readiness; the treasures of good things have been opened; the kingdom of heaven has been prepared before the ages."

A reading from an ancient homily for Holy Saturday

Prayer

Almighty, ever-living God, whose Only-begotten Son descended to the realm of the dead, and rose from there to glory, grant that your faithful people, who were buried with him in baptism, may, by his resurrection, obtain eternal life.
(We make our prayer) through our Lord.
(Through Christ our Lord.)

zenith15 · #35 Feb 25, '12, 10:23 am

That's beautiful!

But I still am left wondering--if those who died prior to Christ were "asleep" in Hades, then how could they appear with Jesus prior to His death?

174a · #36 Feb 25, '12, 10:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenith15

That's beautiful!

But I still am left wondering--if those who died prior to Christ were "asleep" in Hades, then how could they appear with Jesus prior to His death?

Hades and Paradise are the same place. Paradise is the resting place of the redeemed before the final judgement and is open to those who trust in Jesus. If you remember Jesus said to the repentant thief, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." Where did they both go? They went to the grave and this is where we all go until the resurrection.

Before anyone asks, Jesus conquered Hell which is death. So firstly Jesus was in paradise which is the grave and when he rose again he conquered death which is Hell.

.

Mike30 · #37 Feb 25, '12, 12:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkThompson

"He descended to the dead" is the old translation. "He descended into hell" is the new translation that is coming into force this year.

Actually descended to the dead was the new and improved translation thrust upon us. Descended into Hell was the old one which has now been restored along with other mistranslations or miwsinterpretations by ICEL

MarkThompson · #38 Feb 25, '12, 12:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike30

Actually descended to the dead was the new and improved translation thrust upon us. Descended into Hell was the old one which has now been restored along with other mistranslations or miwsinterpretations by ICEL

What I said was correct. Your point is entirely opaque, I'm afraid.

Mike30 · #39 Feb 25, '12, 12:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkThompson

What I said was correct. Your point is entirely opaque, I'm afraid.

As is yours.

MarkThompson · #40 Feb 25, '12, 3:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike30

As is yours.

zenith15 · #41 Feb 25, '12, 8:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 174a

Hades and Paradise are the same place. Paradise is the resting place of the redeemed before the final judgement and is open to those who trust in Jesus. If you remember Jesus said to the repentant thief, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." Where did they both go? They went to the grave and this is where we all go until the resurrection.

Before anyone asks, Jesus conquered Hell which is death. So firstly Jesus was in paradise which is the grave and when he rose again he conquered death which is Hell.

.

Oh, ok thanks for the clarification. Were those in Paradise conscious, or asleep? And does Paradise still exist?

174a · #42 Feb 25, '12, 9:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenith15

Oh, ok thanks for the clarification. Were those in Paradise conscious, or asleep? And does Paradise still exist?

Hello Zenith,

We are a tripartite being comprising body, soul and spirit.

The body dies and goes into the grave along with the spirit and that is the end, The soul lives on..

So the bodies of both Jesus and the repentant thief went into the grave while their Incorporeal soul lived on in Paradise which is heaven and will always exist and where hopefully one day you and I will meet up.

Hell is eternal death and although both Jesus and the repentant thief died they now have eternal life in Paradise thanks to Jesus who conquered death. This is the reward of the believer.

The wonder of it is that He who created life in the beginning rose up again from the dead in newness of life. This is the physical resurrection. The incorporeal soul of the repentant thief lives on and is conscious in Paradise along with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to whom be the glory.

I don't like to say what happens to the unbeliever.

With Christian love.
.

Cranmer · #43 Feb 26, '12, 3:04 pm

According to Paul, we will see the return of Jesus Christ and the Final Judgement in new and incorruptible bodies. So, the resting of souls in Abraham's Bosom or Paradise is not the end of it.

zenith15 · #44 Feb 26, '12, 10:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 174a

Hello Zenith,

We are a tripartite being comprising body, soul and spirit.

The body dies and goes into the grave along with the spirit and that is the end, The soul lives on..

So the bodies of both Jesus and the repentant thief went into the grave while their Incorporeal soul lived on in Paradise which is heaven and will always exist and where hopefully one day you and I will meet up.

Hell is eternal death and although both Jesus and the repentant thief died they now have eternal life in Paradise thanks to Jesus who conquered death. This is the reward of the believer.

The wonder of it is that He who created life in the beginning rose up again from the dead in newness of life. This is the physical resurrection. The incorporeal soul of the repentant thief lives on and is conscious in Paradise along with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to whom be the glory.

I don't like to say what happens to the unbeliever.

With Christian love.
.

I share your hope we will one day meet in Heaven!