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  #16  
Old Jul 11, '12, 6:42 am
Contarini Contarini is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

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I disagree; Christians seem to take that sort of scholarship very seriously to me. They just don't agree with it. William Lane Craig has done some excellent work regarding the historicity of the Gospels, off of the top of my head. I have another book by an author bookmarked right now that's solely about looking at various historical claims about the Resurrection (I'm too lazy to look it up right now ). Lee Strobel wrote a book called "The Case for Christ" on the historicity of the New Testament.

Christian scholars give serious thought to "Jesus Seminar" scholarship. They just don't agree with the conclusions.
You're right that Christians take revisionist scholarship much more seriously than Muslims do. We could discuss whether that's because of intrinsic Christian-Muslim differences or just because Western Christians are more accustomed to living in a pluralistic, partly secularized society and have made their peace with this. But the fact is clear.

However, I was thinking less of Christian scholars than of the typical Christian response on this forum. Mention someone like Pagels or Ehrman or Crossan and the typical response will be dismissal.

Also, Strobel is hardly an example of someone who takes revisionist scholarship seriously. N. T. Wright would be a much better example even than Craig. (Or, among Catholics, perhaps Fr. Robert Barron.)

Edwin
  #17  
Old Jul 11, '12, 9:11 am
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

Edwin is right about how free societies must allow muslims to freely submit to private Sharia court arrangements on a voluntary basis. We can't oppose this without, for example, opening up things like our marriage tribunals to government meddling. Goose, gander, etc...

But Sharia doesn't easily lend itself to private, voluntary submission. It is a system designed to dominate a society and demand submission (the definition of Islam). Traditionally, if I (christian) share the gospel with a muslim teenager, Sharia permits (perhaps encourages) the father of that teen to use violence against me to 'protect' his child. This clearly cannot be tolerated in an open society. So RealJulianne is correct to be alarmed that 'Sharia' is unlikely to 'submit' to modifications necessary to keep it a voluntary and private order that rules the conduct of muslims alone. Historically, that's just not what Sharia IS.

Edwin and I have been round this course once before and he may have a point that Sharia, to the extent that its entirety is NOT a divinely revealed system is subject to changes and reform. But history to date suggests that's a pretty steep uphill climb. So I don't think concern is entirely without merit or to be condemned as bigotry.
  #18  
Old Jul 11, '12, 9:14 am
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benjohnson benjohnson is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

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So whatever you say about Muslims applies to any other religious group--say Catholics. (And if you want to argue that the Bill of Rights presupposes a certain broad religious consensus, it's pretty clear historically that this consensus was Protestant.)
Edwin, that may have been true 500 years ago when Christians were quite busy mingling religion with state - but no Christian denomination that I know of thinks this is a proper idea anymore. Historically, even then, it usually was the state interfering with Christians.

Islam, as it is practiced by the vast majority of it's adherents, rejects the separation of chruch and state with only one nation that I know of who has a majority Islamic population and a marginally secular government.

I would submit , that it's not illogical to keep on your guard against Islamic encroachment into government if you value a secular government.
  #19  
Old Jul 11, '12, 9:43 am
Contarini Contarini is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

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Edwin, that may have been true 500 years ago when Christians were quite busy mingling religion with state - but no Christian denomination that I know of thinks this is a proper idea anymore. Historically, even then, it usually was the state interfering with Christians.

Islam, as it is practiced by the vast majority of it's adherents, rejects the separation of chruch and state with only one nation that I know of who has a majority Islamic population and a marginally secular government.

I would submit , that it's not illogical to keep on your guard against Islamic encroachment into government if you value a secular government.
I think you misunderstood my point.

I'm alluding to the present conflict between the Catholic bishops and the Obama administration. My point is that the administration questions the Catholic Church's right to claim exemption from government policy under the guise of religious freedom. The question both here and with regard to Shari'a is whether the right to religious freedom applies to communities as well as individuals, and whether granting communities such rights may in fact interfere with the rights of individuals. So, for instance, some would say that granting an exemption to Catholic hospitals based on Catholic teaching ignores the many Catholics who disagree with this teaching as well as the rights of non-Catholics employed by Catholic institutions, essentially giving government endorsement to Catholic dogma over against the choices of individuals. I think this is very similar to the more reasonable concerns that folks have about Shari'a in Western countries (for instance, one of the more controversial issues is whether we should respect Islamic norms regarding female dress and behavior, and whether such respect actually interferes with the rights of Muslim women who may wish to disobey or change such norms).

Edwin
  #20  
Old Jul 11, '12, 10:09 am
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benjohnson benjohnson is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

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I think you misunderstood my point.

Edwin
The fault it mine. Ideally, I would like to see free people be able to bind themselves contractually to more strict religious law - Catholics for example should be able to give up the secular "no-fault" divorce provisions of marriage law if they voluntarily choose to do so.

That said, I really don't think Sharia law would be quite the same - not only does it bind the adherent, it also attempts to bind others who are not necessarily Islamic in a much more pernicious manor than any other religious law that I'm aware of.
  #21  
Old Jul 11, '12, 10:56 am
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Marc Anthony Marc Anthony is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

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Originally Posted by Contarini View Post
You're right that Christians take revisionist scholarship much more seriously than Muslims do. We could discuss whether that's because of intrinsic Christian-Muslim differences or just because Western Christians are more accustomed to living in a pluralistic, partly secularized society and have made their peace with this. But the fact is clear.

However, I was thinking less of Christian scholars than of the typical Christian response on this forum. Mention someone like Pagels or Ehrman or Crossan and the typical response will be dismissal.

Also, Strobel is hardly an example of someone who takes revisionist scholarship seriously. N. T. Wright would be a much better example even than Craig. (Or, among Catholics, perhaps Fr. Robert Barron.)

Edwin
Fair enough. I was going off of the first scholars I thought of off of the top of my head. I have heard of both Wright and Barron, and have read some of Barron's work. I don't like his proofs of the existence of God using physics (I think the subject should be approached purely philosophically), but his work on the historicity of the Gospels is good.

From what I've read of Craig I disagree with the majority of his philosophy but am very impressed with his work on the historicity of the New Testament.

Wright I have yet to read, though I've heard of him.
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"But he was undoubtedly a moron to begin with. Illiterate, superstitious, murderous....Look at him, and tell me if you see the progeny of a once-mighty civilization? What do you see?"

"The image of Christ," grated the monsignor, surprised at his own sudden anger. "What did you expect me to see?"
  #22  
Old Jul 13, '12, 11:32 am
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KathleenGee KathleenGee is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

I think what has happened to faith is that people have lost faith in Christ's providence and the Cross.

Christianity condemned contraception all the way up to the Anglicans allowing it in the 1930's. I would not want to take The Pill because it is a drug and it is tampering with the sacred part of my being that receives and nurtures life. I don't think we know the full impact of The Pill on a woman's body -- ecause of politics.

We are living in a time of great loss of faith. So I blame those who practice contraception, a great evil in fact, on loss of faith -- rather than on the Church. I worked in Africa and children are considered a great gift, not a burden.

Back to Islam, I appreciate finding out about this resource Arabic Catholic has identified. I started reading about Islam after 9/11, never understanding the fratricide among Judaism, Christianity and Islam....and after reading for about 5 years...can see what from my resources I have, that Islam is indeed founded on shaky ground, on fraudulent ground.

And where there is fraud, there is violence and injustice.

Secondly, I think we women are much more sensitive and intolerant of Islam...those of us who know....because of the treatment of women in general under oppressive aspects of Islam, the European white women sex slave trade combined with the African slave trade, founded by Arabs and utilized by European and colonial white men.

Just the other day, I was in the grocery story. Some man came up behind me and made a spit sound toward me. I spun around and it was a young, thin Muslim man with his garb with a companion. The government has created a Muslim settlement by my home, 12 blocks away. The other day a Muslima came down my street in a headscarf and clothes...pastel colored. I waved at her, and she scowled at me.. I gave her a friendly wave, and she did not reciprocate, but finally raised her hand but to wave me off.

I now am going to contact the imam...once the most violent mosque in the USA....about their attitude and behaviors.

It is bad to come to my country, reap its benefits and freedom, but have contempt for us...especially the women...all this because of the free sex allowed by The Pill and wanton dress.

I think Islam is right to want women to be chaste and modest....but they go overboard...while the men are allowed to wear Western clothes. I see it down the street all the time...and the continual non-friendliness. My husband and sons are watching all of this with alot of concern, and fear some day of worst things to come.
  #23  
Old Jul 13, '12, 11:36 am
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KathleenGee KathleenGee is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

My other concern is that these kinds of Muslims demand rights to express their religion to the point of suing us.

Yet, if I were in their country of origin, would these same Muslims, who have demonstrated contemptible personally towards me, afford me the right to wear my Cross or promote my faith?
  #24  
Old Jul 13, '12, 3:27 pm
ComeHome2Rome ComeHome2Rome is offline
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Lightbulb Re: The church and islam

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Originally Posted by KathleenGee View Post
I think Islam is right to want women to be chaste and modest....but they go overboard...
Contemplating recently how so many of our Christian women Saints are depicted in Icons, including the Blessed Virgin, and they look just like modern-day Muslimas with full headcovering and robe-type dress.

Thinking maybe, just maybe, the Muslimas are not the ones who have gone overboard. Seen lots of Christian women on You-tube, Catholic, Orthodox & Prodestant, who wear hijab. I'm tempted, but not brave enough yet to follow suit.
  #25  
Old Jul 13, '12, 5:04 pm
arabic catholic arabic catholic is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

unfortiantly , non has respond to my question , rather then asking why people do not make Islamic studies like before, I saw replays on Jesus Simnar , Islam is nice , I want to cover my head

There is no nice islam in it's orginal Sunni message , it's pure evil . The only way to reform islam , is to do more islamic studies on the quran and it's history , and expose the lies that many believe and follow , which drive them to hate others .

Edwin , I am not sure why you are skeptic about the work of Henri Lammens , which is built on the foundations of works of Goldziher and prince Caetani . He did very useful studies on islam history. In fact F.E. Peters said This about Lammens '' whatever his motives and style.. has never been refuted .'' (The quest of the historical muhammad) and '' Lawrence Conrad makes a similar point , that despite Lammen's wel known hostility to islam , he offers a '' number of useful insights.'' ''' (Ibn Warraq Virgins what Virgins )

As for Esposito , no we don't need people like him , Or like John Voll , those people are the once who promote the cancer in your society ,he wrote months before 9/11 '' Focusing on Usama bin Laden risks catapulting one of many sources of terrorism to center stage, distorting both the diverse international sources and relevance of one man '' and in 1994 claimed that Hamas , a terrorist group , was only a community-focused group that engaged in '' Honey, Cheese-making, and home based clothing ,manufacture '' . This kind of people are the once who want us to believe that a religion which teach us hate to others from very young age , and it goals to take over the world and rule it with it backward divine law , is '' religion of peace''
  #26  
Old Jul 13, '12, 5:49 pm
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KathleenGee KathleenGee is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

In my own experience on CAF, I have found it very difficult to even dialogue with Muslims who fall into the falsehood that the crucifixion never happened, and do not have faith in God's greatness that He can come to us in the form of the Perfect Man.

It gets to the point that you are like dealing with blasphemy and sacrilege...one of the issues behind the Spanish Inquisition of non-believers receiving the Eucharist without faith...akin to even a Levite, unauthorized Jewish priest entering into the Holy of Holies....Jesus now is the manner of God coming to us all over the world and being in the holy place...His tabernacle at the altar.

I saw a timeline that has long sense been buried many pages back of skirmishes between Islamic and non-Islamic, and it was like every 3 years we have had battles, wars, skirmishes....that make me wonder what the world would be like if we did not have the presence of Islam's House of War...

I think today Iran's mullahs and Revolutionary Guard are behind alot of troubles...bringing great damage to Lebanon, to Iraq and surrounding countries.

Islam Brotherhood...who are they? Shias or Sunnis? I think the Arab Spring was more of a spring board for militant Islam around the world...never trusted it or factions in our government without actually investigating who was whom in this...using the moderate university students as a cover.

www.NewAgeIslam.com is very good and brings to light the struggles moderate Muslims have who are addressing the same issues as we.
  #27  
Old Jul 13, '12, 6:22 pm
arabic catholic arabic catholic is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

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Originally Posted by KathleenGee View Post
In my own experience on CAF, I have found it very difficult to even dialogue with Muslims who fall into the falsehood that the crucifixion never happened, and do not have faith in God's greatness that He can come to us in the form of the Perfect Man.

It gets to the point that you are like dealing with blasphemy and sacrilege...one of the issues behind the Spanish Inquisition of non-believers receiving the Eucharist without faith...akin to even a Levite, unauthorized Jewish priest entering into the Holy of Holies....Jesus now is the manner of God coming to us all over the world and being in the holy place...His tabernacle at the altar.

I saw a timeline that has long sense been buried many pages back of skirmishes between Islamic and non-Islamic, and it was like every 3 years we have had battles, wars, skirmishes....that make me wonder what the world would be like if we did not have the presence of Islam's House of War...

I think today Iran's mullahs and Revolutionary Guard are behind alot of troubles...bringing great damage to Lebanon, to Iraq and surrounding countries.

Islam Brotherhood...who are they? Shias or Sunnis? I think the Arab Spring was more of a spring board for militant Islam around the world...never trusted it or factions in our government without actually investigating who was whom in this...using the moderate university students as a cover.

www.NewAgeIslam.com is very good and brings to light the struggles moderate Muslims have who are addressing the same issues as we.

one of the thing people fall into in the west , is the idea that islam preach Chastity , because women cover their head . now I will not talk about the nastiness exist in islam and by the sayings of the prophet of islam , from prostitution marriage that still exist in Shiaism to this day , and abandon by Sunnis in the period of Umar.

However , those poor people in the west they never go further and read why those muslims should cover their head, or what will happen to anyone who disobey

for example , I used to pray 5 times a day from 10 years old to the time I left islam , the reason why I did it , because muhammad said if I left the prayer , I will be kaffer (non believer), so it's all base on the afterlife horror of hell skin burning , not to mention the grave torture by a bald snake . that makes me pray the five prayer , a similar story is told to many muslim girls .

I will add some hadiths which explain why the mijority of people in hell are women

It was narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that women will form the majority of the people of Hell. It was narrated from ‘Imraan ibn Husayn that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I looked into Paradise and I saw that the majority of its people were the poor. And I looked into Hell and I saw that the majority of its people are women.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3241; Muslim, 2737)

With regard to the reason for that, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was asked about it and he explained the reason.

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I was shown Hell and I have never seen anything more terrifying than it. And I saw that the majority of its people are women.” They said, “Why, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “Because of their ingratitude (kufr).” It was said, “Are they ungrateful to Allaah?” He said, “They are ungrateful to their companions (husbands) and ungrateful for good treatment. If you are kind to one of them for a lifetime then she sees one (undesirable) thing in you, she will say, ‘I have never had anything good from you.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1052)

It was narrated that Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri said:

“The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out to the Musalla on the day of Eid al-Adha or Eid al-Fitr. He passed by the women and said, ‘O women! Give charity, for I have seen that you form the majority of the people of Hell.’ They asked, ‘Why is that, O Messenger of Allaah?’ He replied, ‘You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religious commitment than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.’ The women asked, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, what is deficient in our intelligence and religious commitment?’ He said, ‘Is not the testimony of two women equal to the testimony of one man?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Is it not true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her religious commitment.’”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 304)

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah said: “I attended Eid prayers with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He started with the prayer before the khutbah, with no adhaan or iqaamah. Then he stood up, leaning on Bilaal, speaking of fear of Allaah (taqwa) and urging us to obey Him. He preached to the people and reminded them. Then he went over to the women and preached to them and reminded them. Then he said, ‘Give in charity, for you are the majority of the fuel of Hell. A woman with dark cheeks stood up in the midst of the women and said, ‘Why is that, O Messenger of Allaah?’ He said, ‘Because you complain too much and are ungrateful to your husbands.’ Then they started to give their jewellery in charity, throwing their earrings and rings into Bilaal’s cloak.”

(Narrated by Muslim, 885)
  #28  
Old Jul 13, '12, 7:24 pm
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KathleenGee KathleenGee is offline
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Default Re: The church and islam

Yes...the reasons are different for Muslimas.....and many of them do not wear the veil and Islam did not decree it....it was the ones who came afterwards who had added such decrees...

Muslim women in Saudi Arabia know that white reflects lilght, which the men are allowed to wear, but the women remain in black robes that keep the heat in. I wonder how many Muslim women are hearing the promptings of the Holy Spirit, of listening to the quiet voice of God Who speaks through the gentle breeze -- that He loves them?...

A priest told our Bible group that he thinks there are more men in hell. You see more women in church praying. They are the ones who tell the men to clean up their talk and behavior.

As a small child, I used to go with my aunt in her car and I would sit in the back seat and look at the roads, and telephone poles and the wires, the houses, and shops, the bridges and ferry boats....and think how the men built all of them....and then I saw Wild West tv shows...there were alot of Westerns on TV in the 1950's, and as a small child I saw more men being arrested, killed or put into prison.

So with more men in prison, I grew up by just observing the world around me that men were inclined to be alot worse than women...they do alot outside....but they also fill the prisons up as well....

As I was sharing earlier....I do not see the presence of Godly virtue in a few Muslim women who come here with their gowns, but a sense of contempt and superiority. I met a Muslim woman a few years ago, whose husband was back overseas....she was very nice....and visited a Catholic church and told me their impression of us is that Christians are happy people. I wonder what happened to her. I gave her a prayer card to the Sacred Heart of Jesus...to help her see how we relate to Him and how we need Him...all in love.

Our biggest obstacle is not recognizing just how much Christ loves us.
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