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  #61  
Old Mar 16, '12, 10:00 am
wynnejj's Avatar
wynnejj wynnejj is offline
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Default Re: How would you respond to this argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACCT View Post
St. Thomas Aquinas gave the classical definition of truth.
Whenever St Thomas Aquinas comes up in a conversation about abortion, I'm reminded of this story of Stojan Adasevic...

http://www.michaeljournal.org/adasevic.htm

It's another Bernard Nathanson conversion story.
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Last edited by wynnejj; Mar 16, '12 at 10:15 am.
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  #62  
Old Mar 16, '12, 12:56 pm
ACCT ACCT is offline
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Default Re: How would you respond to this argument?

I am pretty sure that Martin Luther did not want to form his own Church. He never wanted a "Lutheran" church. He believed himself to be a Catholic during his dissension even though the Catholic Church had already named him an outsider.

The Church teaches that those that have actively participated in the abortion process are excommunicated automatically. This is not a punishment; it is a statement of fact that THEY have separated themselves from the Church. I do not believe that this would apply to all taxpayers since we do not get to determine how tax dollars are spent, yet I am making an assumption on how God will Judge me for the spending of tax dollars that I have little control over. That being said if I vote for someone that I know will spend MY tax dollars supporting abortion then I am taking an ACTIVE part in the abortion process. I have actively helped others procure abortion. You can argue any way you want to, but in the end you need to address this in prayer because the justification of your actions and separation from the church is with God.

The above being said, I am sure you can find a priest somewhere that would counter church teaching..... it has been happening for hundreds of years, but it still does not make the protesting priest any more correct then Luther.
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  #63  
Old Mar 16, '12, 1:00 pm
ACCT ACCT is offline
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Default Re: How would you respond to this argument?

“No other issue, not all other issues taken together, can constitute a proportionate reason for voting for candidates that intend to preserve and defend this holocaust of innocent human life that is abortion (Father John Corapi).”

"If you believe in 'abortion rights,' and knowingly and willfully vote for a candidate who promises to protect those 'rights,' you have committed a sin." This is especially true for Catholics who have 2,000 years of Church teaching and tradition to back them up. "A voter who votes for a candidate who supports abortion has intentionally and deliberately helped someone who promotes a violent and destructive activity. That vote is similar in seriousness to participating in a pro-abortion rally, or writing an editorial that supports abortion (Priests for Life)."

These are the moral implications of voting. I once belonged to the Democrat Party, then I joined the Republican Party, and I now belong to the Constitution Party. However, my moral obligation is to keep out candidates who support abortion, usually Democrats; therefore, I often vote for Republicans who oppose abortion.
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  #64  
Old Mar 16, '12, 9:03 pm
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wynnejj wynnejj is offline
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Default Re: How would you respond to this argument?

ACCT,

I agree with this, but I think many marginal Catholics may question this doctrine.

Quote:
The Church teaches that those that have actively participated in the abortion process are excommunicated automatically. ... That being said if I vote for someone that I know will spend MY tax dollars supporting abortion then I am taking an ACTIVE part in the abortion process. ...
The conflict comes when secular reasoning conflicts with pure faith values. There are many that harbor reservations about the early stages of life and whether it is sacred. That is why I referenced the Stojan Adasevic story, because it shows that even St Thomas Aquinas, a doctor of the Church, can be influenced by conventional wisdom of the times...

Quote:
I have also become interested in the life of Thomas Aquinas, about whom I knew nothing before. I have often thought why he appeared in my dream, and not other saints, especially since he is a Catholic saint, and I am Orthodox. To explain this, I started studying Thomas’ writings. Guess what I found? According to Aquinas, human life begins 40 days after fertilization in the case of men, and 80 days in the case of women. So what is a child in those preceding days? Nothing? I think what Thomas said gives him no peace in the eschaton. Mind you, it should be stated that Thomas accepted this view from Aristotle. Aristotle was the great authority then. Thomas allowed himself to be influenced by his view, and committed an error.
So a Catholic may take the Magisterium's doctrines on faith - for themselves - but have trouble forcing those values on non-Catholics or non-Christians as codified in law. Especially, if the argument is steered towards the concept of abortion in the first trimester - the "blob of tissue" stage.

Nevertheless, as a citizen in a democracy, I feel it is indeed my duty to force my religion on others when it means that the life of an innocent human being is being destroyed. It matters not what others views of the definition of "human" or "person" maintain. We, as citizens, should vote according to the moral principles of our respective religions. That is, we should be who we say we are, and vote for laws that steer society towards those values.
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  #65  
Old Mar 17, '12, 4:09 am
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monicabay monicabay is offline
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Default Re: How would you respond to this argument?

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Originally Posted by Thought Officer View Post
An embryo with a human genotype is going to develop into a human--to be sure. But you would be surprised how much a human embryo looks like that of other animal species in its early interuterine stages (even like newts, reptiles, and fish). A "human" embryo is really just an undifferentiated animal, at least for a little while. Anatomical differences don't allow for the designation of human, even though it's certain the genetic material will eventually form one.



I tend to reserve the term baby for something that's born. It just makes for more precise language.



The material inside a woman's womb, in the early stages of pregnancy, lacks the type of differentiation needed to be called "human." The object in a pregnant woman, then, is decidedly not a baby.


Not at all. All parasite means is an organism that utilizes the resources of another without contributing resources of its own.

"Material"? And what do you call early stages? 6 weeks? Its heart is beating at 6 weeks. It also has arms and legs. Yes I do know, a lot more than you may think, being all the complications I had.

Look, I have many problems while pregnant and saw all my kids many times before birth. They all looked human very early.

Word games won't change the fact that this life is human.
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  #66  
Old Mar 17, '12, 9:38 am
ACCT ACCT is offline
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Default Re: How would you respond to this argument?

The Taliban and the Crusaders practiced salvation by the sword. Today the people who practice violence are those who raise a "sword” against the unborn through abortion. The Catholic Church cannot force politicians to change their positions on abortion. However, the Church does ask these politicians to HONESTLY admit in public that they are not in “full union” with the Church.

“Catholic” politicians, who dissent in a public forum from the Catholic Church’s teaching on the right to life of all unborn children, freely do so. These politicians choose to separate themselves from the Church’s teachings. They also separate themselves from the Catholic community. They have abandoned the full Catholic faith. It is DISHONEST for such a person to express “communion” with Christ and His Church through the sacrament of the Eucharist. These politicians may not claim to be Christians, and yet disbelieve what the Church teaches. There is a split between what they profess to believe and their daily lives.

It does not take a bishop to excommunicate these politicians. These “Catholic” politicians have distanced themselves from Jesus Christ and His Church. They have excommunicated themselves. These politicians may not receive Holy Communion in any Catholic Church in the world! To do so would be a lie. It would be a scandal.

Abortion is an “abominable crime.” It is an injustice of the first order. The Catholic Church only has one position on abortion. It is plain for the whole world to see. There is no room for interpretations to justify abortion. There are no evaluations to justify the crime. Abortion is the deliberate targeting and destruction of a child.

Additionally, it is a sin for a Catholic to knowingly vote for a candidate who supports abortion. I cannot, in good conscience, vote for anyone in the Democrat Party because, as I understand it, the Democrat Party supports abortion. A Christian conscience does not permit me to vote for a candidate or political program that contradicts the fundamental content of faith and morals. I take my Christian conscience to the polls when I vote!
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