Russian punk band 'blasphemy' trial - thoughts? - Page 13

dzheremi · #**181** Aug 19, '12, 12:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel7

We're not in Russia, dzheremi. This is CatholicAnswers forums. A predominantly Western Christian community. Hence, as I've already explained (ad-nauseam) my surprise that people around here are generally in agreement with the Russian authorities in sentencing these girls to 2 years in prison for their little song and dance routine.

So because they're Western Christians (though this particular thread, being on the Eastern sub-forum, probably attracts more Easterners and those sympathetic to the Russian Orthodox Church than others would) they cannot or perhaps should not recognize the right of the Russian state to prosecute people who break the law, and sentence them accordingly? It's not that I don't agree with your right to an opinion, I just don't see how people who agree with the government action (maybe not the length of the sentence, but the idea that there should be some concrete ramifications for this, not, as we see from various Western governments, calls to respect these girls' "freedom of speech") are somehow not being good Christians or good Catholics or whatever. This case is not a litmus test of religious faith OR free speech rights (the girls were not arrested for having a particular opinion, but for something more akin to disturbing the peace by the way they chose to express that opinion).

bpcatholic · #**182** Aug 19, '12, 12:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exorcist

The West is not more secular than the east.

They both may be secular, but that doesn't mean they view the world the same way. Cultural traditions still affect us whether we realise it or not.

**pnewton** · #**183** Aug 19, '12, 1:03 am

I found this rather interesting poll.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*****_riot

Quote:

A series of Levada Center polls showed that 44% of Russians believed that the trial was "fair and impartial" while 17% believed it was not. 36% believed that the verdict would be based on the evidence and 18% believed that the verdict would be influenced by the state. 6% sympathised with ***** Riot, while 41% felt antipathy towards them.However, 58% of respondents expected the defendants to receive a disproportionate punishment and only 17% supported a prison term of two or more years, as was handed down.

I guess that sums up my opinion. The sentence seems disproportional, though I readily admit that I do not know the details. I do feel that even if the sentence is disproportional it is still a direct result of their own actions. Freedom of speech should never include my right to enter your house under false pretenses and film a video wish says ugly things about your mother.

Aramis · #**184** Aug 19, '12, 2:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel7

Did these silly girls destroy any Church property or desecrate the Eucharist or something? NOPE!
They ran up and did a little dance and said some bad stuff. Big deal. So what?!?

They should be given a little community service at the Church for causing that disturbance.

I can't believe all of the support that I see here for the stupid Putin/Russian (KGB) commie government that sentences people to 7 years in prison for a little stunt like this.

I thought this was a forum mostly of Catholic Christians. Those girls didn't harm anyone. Where's the forgiveness?

PRISON?? SERIOUSLY??

It's criminal trespass. Which, in the US, gets you up to several years of jail time, depending upon the state.

Disturbing the peace can get up to a year or two, again, varying by where.

Why is it criminal trespass rather than simple trespass?

The ambon is off limits to the laity, except when brought there by clergy for specific blessings, or when serving as an altar server. In most Orthodox parishes I've seen, when not being used for liturgies or paraliturgical prayers, the area from the tetrapod to the corners of the iconostas is roped off...

And this is common knowledge to many Russians.

Further, they committed their unauthorized entry in order to perpetrate a crime - public performance requires a permit, which they lacked. (Noted in a couple articles on their trial.)

Hence, criminal trespass, even tho' they did no physical damage of any note.

In Alaska, they could have gotten the same sentence. Probably wouldn't have, but could have.

Russian law apparently lacks the clear delineations of charges that Alaskan law has. It would have been charged in Alaska as criminal trespass, disturbing the peace, and/or disorderly conduct.... with a likely plead-out to the two misdemeanors to avoid the minor felony... but they'd surely have gotten jail time, if not prison time.

It's also worth noting that they are NOT being tried for what they said. They are being tried only for where they said it and not having had the permissions to say ANYTHING from that spot.

**JharekCarnelian** · #**185** Aug 19, '12, 3:02 am

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel7

Did these silly girls destroy any Church property or desecrate the Eucharist or something? NOPE!
They ran up and did a little dance and said some bad stuff. Big deal. So what?!?

So what you say? Firstly let's point out that as other poster have mentioned what they said was not the reason they were tried as they have been saying this stuff repeatedly for several years in any case. However what they actually said included directly comparing Christ to human bodily waste, calling the Patriach a term which is highly offensive and similar to the word beginniing with the letter b some times used to women in an unpleasant manner. Also musical instruments are NOT permitted in Orthodox (or for that matter many Eastern Catholic) Churches and as another poster points out laity are not permitted to be on the ambon in the manner they were. I think it amazing that the parishioners and clergy showed the presence of mind and calm to remove them without someone throwing a punch at them.

Quote:

They should be given a little community service at the Church for causing that disturbance

.

What will actually happen after the sentence remains to be seen, the ROC Church itself has asked for some compromise or clemency if possible.

Quote:

I can't believe all of the support that I see here for the stupid Putin/Russian (KGB) commie government that sentences people to 7 years in prison for a little stunt like this.

Communism fell over 20 years ago. The Reds are no longer ensconced under the beds. At least one hopes not as it would be rather dusty down there by now. No-one was sentenced to 7 years so your point seems along the lines of a hyperbolic rant against a stereotyped notion of Russia and the Russian people. They were tried for hooliganism and as was pointed out criminal trespass which is what they could have been tried for in the US carries hefty jail time as a potential penalty there.

Quote:

I thought this was a forum mostly of Catholic Christians. Those girls didn't harm anyone. Where's the forgiveness?

These girls DID harm people, themselves and society, to name the most obvious two. Forgiveness should be extended, that does not mean there should be no consequences to such actions. Justice should be tempered wih mercy and the girls allowed a chance to repent and recant these actions, as one girl has already done.

Quote:

PRISON?? SERIOUSLY??

The British imprisoned the son of one of Pink Floyd's members for taking part in student riots. A major part of the prosecution rested on the fact that he had disrespected Britain's war dead by his behaviour at the Cenotaph in London. I did not see international outcries about the sentence, which I may point out he richly deserved.

Peter J · #**186** Aug 19, '12, 4:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnewton

Yes, I missed that post, one in more than a hundred. .

Well I am just shocked that you would use the qualifier "when no one has posted contrary to Catholic moral teaching" without first going back and re-reading every single post.

Shocked I say!

triumphguy · #**187** Aug 19, '12, 9:08 am

UK High Court judgment in DPP v Redmond-Bate case in 1997. Mr Justice Sedley:

"Free speech includes not only the inoffensive but the irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and the provocative provided it does not tend to provoke violence. Freedom only to speak inoffensively is not worth having."

**pnewton** · #**188** Aug 19, '12, 3:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter J

Well I am just shocked that you would use the qualifier "when no one has posted contrary to Catholic moral teaching" without first going back and re-reading every single post.

Shocked I say!

The thing is, I did scan through the whole thread.

Something to consider is that just because a poster is not confronted directly for lack of charity does not mean that no one opposed that person. If a person goes beyond the pale for charity, I do not opposed them, but report them. Note that the poster in question was banned. Obviously some members here took that route.

tabycat · #**189** Aug 19, '12, 4:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBowen7

I see it as more than a little song and dance. the language used in the lyrics was garbage language that is not appropriate. In fact, I suspect you would be in trouble if you use that language on this forum. And it is an insult and offensive to Orthodox Christians as it would be to Catholics also to have criminals barge into your Church and perform with these lewd, garbage lyrics in front of an iconostasis.
Two years in a prison camp seems pretty lenient to me.

Not just this forum, but also most forums on the internrt and radio talk shows.

JW55 · #**190** Aug 19, '12, 7:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel7

I was surprised at the apparent majority here who did not protest the 2 year prison sentence for these girls little song and dance, and who rather found such punishment justified, or even light.
I expected more charity, forgiveness, and mercy from a predominantly Western Christian community such as this. That is all.

Was what these girls did offensive? Yes, I agree it was offensive. I attend an inner-city Cathedral daily and so I've seen disturbances at Mass plenty of times. Comes with the territory.
But was what these girls did criminal, especially to a level of being put behind bars for 2 years? I certainly do not believe so. I believe that it is very counter-productive for the Church, and the government, and certainly counterproductive for those girls and their peers whose distaste for the Catholic Church will surely only grow as a result of all of this.
That is my opinion.

So this will detrimentally affect how these girls feel about the Catholic Church (the church was Orthodox)? I seriously doubt it. I don't think these girls were on board with the church at any point. I don't think it will have any affect on how they feel about the Catholic or Orthodox churches. They wanted attention and they got it.

triumphguy · #**191** Aug 19, '12, 8:10 pm

I still keep thinking of Dietrich Von Bonhoeffer's quote.

Peter J · #**192** Aug 20, '12, 6:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnewton

The thing is, I did scan through the whole thread.

BTW, my last post,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter J

Well I am just shocked that you would use the qualifier "when no one has posted contrary to Catholic moral teaching" without first going back and re-reading every single post.

Shocked I say!

was not meant seriously (hence the "!"). You may already realize that, but I just want to make sure.

I mean, we are talk about re-reading more than 100 posts right?

**pnewton** · #**193** Aug 21, '12, 12:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter J

BTW, my last post,

was not meant seriously (hence the "!"). You may already realize that, but I just want to make sure.

I mean, we are talk about re-reading more than 100 posts right?

Yes, I got that. I really do make the effort to keep up with what has already been posted. We all know that have done this for a while that it is simply not possible to always catch everything. Perhaps me and Nigel just took a different temperature of this thread.

Peter J · #**194** Aug 21, '12, 2:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnewton

Yes, I got that.

Alright, just wanted to make sure. (Sometimes I fear that if I don't put a

or

at the end of a joke, people will take it seriously.)

Becket1 · #**195** Aug 22, '12, 10:02 pm

Great article that explains what the western media didn't emphasize, or even mention.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4212934.html

This was pure religous hatred. No different to what others have done in history. They know that Putin is an Orthodox christian.

Very Disturbing Video of Punk Group Supporters in Ukraine from RT (Russia Today News).
http://youtu.be/861oGyUkmEQ

This feminist group in Ukraine also tried to attack the Patriarch of Moscow not to long ago.

What is this world coming to!!.