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  #16  
Old Jun 20, '12, 2:16 pm
Blue Horizon Blue Horizon is offline
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Default Re: Book "The Jesus Discovery" - what to make of it?

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Originally Posted by fbl9 View Post
Why would #3 be so hard to accept ? I find it the easy one.
The Gospels are not only scripture they are also historical documents of the life and words of Christ Jesus.
Or does this discovery exclude the Gospels's as history or just the endings of the Gospels?
Good point...such a discovery could only historically discredit the claim of a Resurrection that involves glorification (and "disappearance") of Jesus's earthly body. However wouldn't there be further "fall-out" in so far as the early core "witnesses" would then be discredit-ed. This would probably make the remaining "history" in the Gospels somewhat suspect as some of it would have derived from the core "witnesses."

As you say it would be hard to deny most of the teachings of Jesus recorded in the Gospels as much of it was public and does not rely on the testimony of the core witnesses. His higher teaching is another matter as it was restricted to close disciples.

If the Resurrection is the essential vindication (and prelude of) all the higher claims that Jesus made about God, forgiveness, the Kingdom, himself, the after-life and God's future plans for humanity - then much is endangered if it did not happen. I suppose few could disagree with you (if this is what you are saying) wrt the beauty and power of his moral teaching which shows he would still stand as a very high prophet if not a non-divine Messiah. Lets face it, many Christians and Catholics de facto live this sort of "religion" already - Jesus without the Christ as it were. But maybe I have misunderstood your comment.

Last edited by Blue Horizon; Jun 20, '12 at 2:34 pm.
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  #17  
Old Jun 20, '12, 3:05 pm
fbl9 fbl9 is offline
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Default Re: Book "The Jesus Discovery" - what to make of it?

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Originally Posted by Blue Horizon View Post
Good point...such a discovery could only historically discredit the claim of a Resurrection that involves glorification (and "disappearance") of Jesus's earthly body. However wouldn't there be further "fall-out" in so far as the early core "witnesses" would then be discredit-ed. This would probably make the remaining "history" in the Gospels somewhat suspect as some of it would have derived from the core "witnesses."

As you say it would be hard to deny most of the teachings of Jesus recorded in the Gospels as much of it was public and does not rely on the testimony of the core witnesses. His higher teaching is another matter as it was restricted to close disciples.

If the Resurrection is the essential vindication (and prelude of) all the higher claims that Jesus made about God, forgiveness, the Kingdom, himself, the after-life and God's future plans for humanity - then much is endangered if it did not happen. I suppose few could disagree with you (if this is what you are saying) wrt the beauty and power of his moral teaching which shows he would still stand as a very high prophet if not a non-divine Messiah. Lets face it, many Christians and Catholics de facto live this sort of "religion" already - Jesus without the Christ as it were. But maybe I have misunderstood your comment.
Is it your contention that the words of Christ and deeds of Christ as written in the Gospels still stand even if the ressurection parts were false?
The OT promised Christ, this Jesus fit the promises of the OT. Yet because he did not rise from the dead he was a false prophet or the promises of the OT are false as well.
Because this Jesus fit the promises of the OT yet did not rise again, the promises of the OT are false also. Ergo there is no God.That is why i felt the OP's #3 was the easiest one to accept.
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  #18  
Old Jun 20, '12, 6:13 pm
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Porknpie Porknpie is offline
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Default Re: Book "The Jesus Discovery" - what to make of it?

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Originally Posted by Blue Horizon View Post
PorknPie
I think you may have got your wires crossed - I have not read the book and I do not intend to because the premise is not taken seriously by professional archeologists.

Anyhow, to answer your question.
Yes, I think verifying the unity between science and my Faith as circumstances arise is extremely important and does make me more holy.
Without such vigilence I would probably have the same personality as many of those who sincerely joined Jonestown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown). I do not want that happening to me.

You sound like you think otherwise and that is fine. I value your differing opinion and hope that you can do the same for others.
Ok point well taken although i would say that there are better uses of ones time. Anyway, just don't drink any Kool-Aid while you explore this area.
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  #19  
Old Jun 21, '12, 2:03 pm
Blue Horizon Blue Horizon is offline
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Default Re: Book "The Jesus Discovery" - what to make of it?

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Originally Posted by fbl9 View Post
Is it your contention that the words of Christ and deeds of Christ as written in the Gospels still stand even if the ressurection parts were false?
Actually I thought that was what you were saying...but on reflection even if not then yes that does seem possible for some parts of the Gospels. There is much wisdom and ethical beauty in the NT (e.g. the Beatitudes) that people of good will would surely assent to regardless of the provenance. I cannot see why his public miracles would not still stand until proven otherwise.

Quote:
The OT promised Christ, this Jesus fit the promises of the OT. Yet because he did not rise from the dead he was a false prophet or the promises of the OT are false as well..
Can you reference the failed OT prophecies resulting from Jesus not rising from the dead?

I have looked through the Jewish Encyclopedia "Messiah" article (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah) which does not appear to talk of this as something that the Messiah will fulfill. The article appears to also note that it is impossible for the Messiah to literally fulfill all the hopes/prophecies placed upon him.

If we assume you are correct above and Jesus could not be the Messiah (because he did not rise), can we so quickly conclude he was a "false prophet" (i.e. he formally claimed himself to be the Messiah)? It seems just as likely that his religiously disappointed surviving leaders/disciples injected these high claims back on to Jesus's lips in their later writings. That would be entirely consistent with staging a missing tomb/resurrection.
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  #20  
Old Jun 21, '12, 7:23 pm
fbl9 fbl9 is offline
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Default Re: Book "The Jesus Discovery" - what to make of it?

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Originally Posted by Blue Horizon View Post
Actually I thought that was what you were saying...but on reflection even if not then yes that does seem possible for some parts of the Gospels. There is much wisdom and ethical beauty in the NT (e.g. the Beatitudes) that people of good will would surely assent to regardless of the provenance. I cannot see why his public miracles would not still stand until proven otherwise.



Can you reference the failed OT prophecies resulting from Jesus not rising from the dead?

I have looked through the Jewish Encyclopedia "Messiah" article (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah) which does not appear to talk of this as something that the Messiah will fulfill. The article appears to also note that it is impossible for the Messiah to literally fulfill all the hopes/prophecies placed upon him.

If we assume you are correct above and Jesus could not be the Messiah (because he did not rise), can we so quickly conclude he was a "false prophet" (i.e. he formally claimed himself to be the Messiah)? It seems just as likely that his religiously disappointed surviving leaders/disciples injected these high claims back on to Jesus's lips in their later writings. That would be entirely consistent with staging a missing tomb/resurrection.
As you used a Jewish source many of these hopes placed on the Messiah were not promised of God

Psalms? My servant i shall not abondon in the grave
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  #21  
Old Jun 22, '12, 8:33 pm
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Apologista Apologista is offline
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Default Re: Book "The Jesus Discovery" - what to make of it?

This may be sort of relevant - I have heard priests preach about the Assumption of Mary. They point out that with all the other Saints there are first-class relics but none of Mary.

So, even though the Church's teaching about Mary is that she was assumed into Heaven rather than rose from the dead, it seems like it would be crazy to suggest that Jesus' disciples all decided to perpetrate a hoax that He rose from the dead.

The book in question has some kind of argument to get around that, that they didn't mean it literally or whatever, but it's still like they have to complicate it more to prove their point. And like St. Paul said, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, our faith is in vain. Why would St. Paul go to the trouble to point out that we are fools if he wasn't confident that the opposite was true?
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  #22  
Old Jun 22, '12, 11:07 pm
fbl9 fbl9 is offline
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Default Re: Book "The Jesus Discovery" - what to make of it?

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Originally Posted by Apologista View Post
This may be sort of relevant - I have heard priests preach about the Assumption of Mary. They point out that with all the other Saints there are first-class relics but none of Mary.

So, even though the Church's teaching about Mary is that she was assumed into Heaven rather than rose from the dead, it seems like it would be crazy to suggest that Jesus' disciples all decided to perpetrate a hoax that He rose from the dead.

The book in question has some kind of argument to get around that, that they didn't mean it literally or whatever, but it's still like they have to complicate it more to prove their point. And like St. Paul said, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, our faith is in vain. Why would St. Paul go to the trouble to point out that we are fools if he wasn't confident that the opposite was true?
This makes me think that it would be next to impossible to identify with certainity that the grave belonged to Jesus. After all if you are creating a hoax you aren't going to identify the new grave as belonging to Jesus christ.
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