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  #16  
Old Jun 15, '12, 12:08 am
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Originally Posted by Hubertus View Post
All this terminology is a bit confusing for me. So simplifying it a bit..

When we die, because of Christ's suffering and death, we go to (the states of) either Heaven or Hell (Hell being darkness/suffering/the place or state for the bad people, and the foretaste of Gehenna), but those in Hell can be prayed out of Hell and into Heaven.

But after the Last Judgment, both Heaven and Hell become more extreme, because we will have our glorified bodies and Hell will become Gehenna.

So it sounds to me like the only real difference is that Catholics belief in Purgatory before Heaven, and praying for souls in Purgatory to speed up the process, while the Orthodox believe in only Heaven and Hell, and praying for the souls in Hell to get them into Heaven.

And therefore saints, both for Catholic and Orthodox, are those who are in Heaven (i.e. the presence of God, due to their being good people).
Well Roman Catholics believe in Purgatory which has fire the same as Hell. An interesting point you have here though is that does being in Purgatory means you are assured of heaven even if no one prays for you?

As for heaven and hell, if you cannot experience heaven fully before the final resurrection then the same with hell.
  #17  
Old Jun 15, '12, 12:37 pm
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

I like what St. Isaac the Syrian has to say about hell:


"Those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful. That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of heaven by its delectability."

+ St. Isaac the Syrian
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  #18  
Old Jun 16, '12, 9:16 pm
Hubertus Hubertus is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Well Roman Catholics believe in Purgatory which has fire the same as Hell. An interesting point you have here though is that does being in Purgatory means you are assured of heaven even if no one prays for you?
Well, Purgatory is the process of purifying the soul so that it is prepared to see God, which implies a progression, which can't be infinite since we are finite beings, meaning that there has to be an end to the progression at some point. In the end, the soul will be pure and able to be in God's presence. Our prayers for the souls in Purgatory are an effort to "hurry" the process of purification that's already going on. So once one gets to Purgatory, even if no one prays for them, I think they can be sure that they will one day be in Heaven.
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  #19  
Old Jun 16, '12, 9:51 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Well, Purgatory is the process of purifying the soul so that it is prepared to see God, which implies a progression, which can't be infinite since we are finite beings, meaning that there has to be an end to the progression at some point. In the end, the soul will be pure and able to be in God's presence. Our prayers for the souls in Purgatory are an effort to "hurry" the process of purification that's already going on. So once one gets to Purgatory, even if no one prays for them, I think they can be sure that they will one day be in Heaven.
Isn't that contrary to Church teachings? The dead who are not worthy of heaven get there because of our prayers. Can you point me to such a teaching that says what you pointed out? That souls in purgatory does not need prayers to reach heaven, and that our prayers only speed the process up.
  #20  
Old Jun 17, '12, 7:43 am
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Isn't that contrary to Church teachings? The dead who are not worthy of heaven get there because of our prayers. Can you point me to such a teaching that says what you pointed out? That souls in purgatory does not need prayers to reach heaven, and that our prayers only speed the process up.
I was under the impression that this was exactly what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, that souls in purgatory are destined in some sense to be in heaven, but are prevented from entering because of their venial sins. Those who die in a state of mortal sin, on the other hand, go straight to hell.
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  #21  
Old Jun 17, '12, 8:37 am
steve b steve b is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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We believe in the same afterlife as described in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Those who die today are in Abraham's Bosom. Of course Abraham is in heaven after the harrowing of hell on Great and Holy Saturday. And those who die in sin and unworthy of God are where the Rich Man went. And there is this great chasm between them where no one can cross. No one of course except Christ, who is God and can do the impossible.

Hell is hell. It is just not as permanent because we have yet to get the final judgement. Which means we can still petition God relentlessly as in the Parable of the Corrupt Judge.
Abraham and Lazarus couldn't go to heaven yet, because Jesus hadn't resurrected from the dead and ascended to heaven yet. Heaven was closed until that time. As you'll notice, petitions by the rich man did no good. Abraham wasn't going to help him, and neither was Lazarus. Abraham told the rich man his family that he petitions for, have the law and the prophets let them head that. Further attempts at negotiating failed as well. Abraham said even if someone went to them that was raised from the dead, they still wouldn't change. iow, no one was going to help him or them.. And since Jesus is the one telling the story, I think it's safe to say Jesus has made a judgement already

Once someone is in hell they can't get out. If someone is in heaven they are safe for all eternity. If they are in torment but can get out, that's not hell. As far as one escaping torment, and going to heaven, It sounds to me like you're describing purgatory.
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  #22  
Old Jun 17, '12, 9:21 am
steve b steve b is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Well Roman Catholics believe in Purgatory which has fire the same as Hell. An interesting point you have here though is that does being in Purgatory means you are assured of heaven even if no one prays for you?

The purpose of purgatory is purification of the soul by God.

1 Cor 3: 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.



Souls in purgatory will go to heaven, and they know that. Only God will judge when that soul is ready. Because nothing unclean will enter heaven. [Rev 21:27]

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Last edited by steve b; Jun 17, '12 at 9:38 am.
  #23  
Old Jun 17, '12, 9:26 am
steve b steve b is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Originally Posted by Cavaradossi View Post

I was under the impression that this was exactly what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, that souls in purgatory are destined in some sense to be in heaven, but are prevented from entering because of their venial sins. Those who die in a state of mortal sin, on the other hand, go straight to hell.
They will be in heaven just not yet. As far as "yet", we don't know how long that will take.

1 Cor 3: 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.


nothing unclean will enter heaven. [Rev 21:27]
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  #24  
Old Jun 19, '12, 11:41 am
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Originally Posted by steve b View Post
They will be in heaven just not yet. As far as "yet", we don't know how long that will take.

1 Cor 3: 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.


nothing unclean will enter heaven. [Rev 21:27]
The Eastern Christian interpretation of 1 Corinthians 3 is different from that accepted in the West since the time of St. Augustine. Here is what St. John Chrysostom said about the text of 1 Corinthians 3:

Quote:
Now his meaning is this: If any man have an ill life with a right faith, his faith shall not shelter him from punishment, his work being burnt up. The phrase, "shall be burned up," means, "shall not endure the violence of the fire." But just as if a man having golden armor on were to pass through a river of fire, he comes from crossing it all the brighter; but if he were to pass through it with hay, so far from profiting, he destroys himself besides; so also is the case in regard of men's works. For he does not say this as if he were discoursing of material things being burnt up, but with a view of making their fear more intense, and of showing how naked of all defence he is who abides in wickedness. Wherefore he said, "He shall suffer loss": lo, here is one punishment: "but he himself shall be saved, but so as by fire"; lo, again, here is a second. And his meaning is, He himself shall not perish in the same way as his works, passing into nought, but he shall abide in the fire.

He calls it, however, Salvation, you will say; why, that is the cause of his adding, "so as by fire": since we also used to say, "It is preserved in the fire," when we speak of those substances which do not immediately burn up and become ashes. For do not at sound of the word fire imagine that those who are burning pass into annihilation. And though he call such punishment Salvation, be not astonished. For his custom is in things which have an ill sound to use fair expressions, and in good things the contrary. For example, the word Captivity seems to be the name of an evil thing, but Paul has applied it in a good sense, when he says, "Bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." And again, to an evil thing he has applied a good word, saying, "Sin reigned," here surely the term reigning is rather of auspicious sound. And so here in saying, "he shall be saved," he has but darkly hinted at the intensity of the penalty: as if he had said, "But himself shall remain forever in punishment." (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 9 on 1 Corinthians)
In this homily St. John Chrysostom is talking about the apokatastasis of all things, that is, he is talking about how all men will be saved from falling into non-existence by the incarnation and passion of Christ (see also St. Athanasios the Great, On the Incarnation of the Word); with some men (i.e., those who did good things during their earthly lives) being given ever-well-being (heaven) and other men (i.e., those who did evil and sin during their earthly lives) receiving ever-ill-being (hell). It is important to remember that the Eastern Churches never developed a concept of a "purgatory," which is a theological construct that gained acceptance in the West under the influence of St. Augustine's text "The City of God" beginning in the 5th century.
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  #25  
Old Jun 19, '12, 4:41 pm
steve b steve b is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Originally Posted by Apotheoun View Post
The Eastern Christian interpretation of 1 Corinthians 3 is different from that accepted in the West since the time of St. Augustine. Here is what St. John Chrysostom said about the text of 1 Corinthians 3:



In this homily St. John Chrysostom is talking about the apokatastasis of all things, that is, he is talking about how all men will be saved from falling into non-existence by the incarnation and passion of Christ (see also St. Athanasios the Great, On the Incarnation of the Word); with some men (i.e., those who did good things during their earthly lives) being given ever-well-being (heaven) and other men (i.e., those who did evil and sin during their earthly lives) receiving ever-ill-being (hell). It is important to remember that the Eastern Churches never developed a concept of a "purgatory," which is a theological construct that gained acceptance in the West under the influence of St. Augustine's text "The City of God" beginning in the 5th century.
Churches in the East that are united to the pope, are Catholic by definition, therefore, united to the pope doctrinally as well. They don't take exception to Catholic doctrines. That was established at Florence. Not so for the Eastern Orthodox.

Simply put, only if one has a belief in the concept of Purgatory, do prayers for the dead make sense. That's because souls in Hell, can't get out, so prayer for them is useless. The soul in Heaven, prayer is not necessary for them, because they are in complete bliss. So souls in purgatory are the ones who benefit from prayer.

As an aside, the homily you quoted from Chrysostom, I didn't see a contradiction there from what I said.
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  #26  
Old Jun 19, '12, 7:01 pm
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Abraham and Lazarus couldn't go to heaven yet, because Jesus hadn't resurrected from the dead and ascended to heaven yet. Heaven was closed until that time. As you'll notice, petitions by the rich man did no good. Abraham wasn't going to help him, and neither was Lazarus. Abraham told the rich man his family that he petitions for, have the law and the prophets let them head that. Further attempts at negotiating failed as well. Abraham said even if someone went to them that was raised from the dead, they still wouldn't change. iow, no one was going to help him or them.. And since Jesus is the one telling the story, I think it's safe to say Jesus has made a judgement already

Once someone is in hell they can't get out. If someone is in heaven they are safe for all eternity. If they are in torment but can get out, that's not hell. As far as one escaping torment, and going to heaven, It sounds to me like you're describing purgatory.
Some of Jesus' parables talked about the kingdom to come. So why is Lazarus and the Rich man about the current (pre-Resurrection) state of the afterlife and not after?
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Old Jun 20, '12, 10:29 am
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Some of Jesus' parables talked about the kingdom to come. So why is Lazarus and the Rich man about the current (pre-Resurrection) state of the afterlife and not after?
hell was not closed after the fall, only heaven was closed.....true? The bosom of Abraham couldn't be heaven, or else people could get to heaven without Jesus. And we know that isn't possible......true? As I understand the parable, the rich man is already toast, and that wasn't going to change. What would change in that parable, is after the resurrection and ascension, heaven would then be open to souls who died in friendship with God. Abraham & Lazarus in that parable then, would move on to heaven after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.
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  #28  
Old Jun 20, '12, 12:04 pm
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Churches in the East that are united to the pope, are Catholic by definition, therefore, united to the pope doctrinally as well. They don't take exception to Catholic doctrines. That was established at Florence. Not so for the Eastern Orthodox.

Simply put, only if one has a belief in the concept of Purgatory, do prayers for the dead make sense. That's because souls in Hell, can't get out, so prayer for them is useless. The soul in Heaven, prayer is not necessary for them, because they are in complete bliss. So souls in purgatory are the ones who benefit from prayer.
Thank you for giving your opinion on what Eastern Catholics must believe, but as an Eastern Catholic I do not believe in purgatory, because that theological opinion is not a part of my Church's (i.e., the Melkite Catholic Church's) tradition. As far as prayers for the dead are concerned, Eastern Christians pray for the dead because we do not know their state of existence in the eschaton. Praying for mercy is a good Christian thing to do, and one can do that without accepting the Western notion of purgatory.

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As an aside, the homily you quoted from Chrysostom, I didn't see a contradiction there from what I said.
St. John Chrysostom is talking about hell, as is clear from the text when read as a whole. After all, he says that the punishment is "forever," and so I suppose there is no difference between the East and West as long as you believe that St. Augustine's purgatory never ends and is really hell (gehenna).
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  #29  
Old Jun 20, '12, 1:54 pm
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Default Re: Questions on Orthodox Christianity and the Afterlife

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Thank you for giving your opinion on what Eastern Catholics must believe, but as an Eastern Catholic I do not believe in purgatory, because that theological opinion is not a part of my Church's (i.e., the Melkite Catholic Church's) tradition. As far as prayers for the dead are concerned, Eastern Christians pray for the dead because we do not know their state of existence in the eschaton. Praying for mercy is a good Christian thing to do, and one can do that without accepting the Western notion of purgatory.
I didn't just pull it out of my hat.
https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-j...n-the-melkites

Note the question being asked. Note the answer by the bishop. Did he deny purgatory was to be believed? No

In particular, I thought this was a great response.

"Catholic is Catholic and truth is truth. We cannot pose as “Orthodox united to Rome” only for what suits us. I do mean it when we pray every day, at the Divine Liturgy, for “unity of faith and the communion of the Holy Spirit.”
There is no ‘Eastern truth’ vs ‘Western truth’. Truth is one. It may be articulated according to various cultural expressions, but truth is super-cultural. Truth should not be restricted by “party line” positions. We should accept or reject ideas for their worth and not for an artificial attachment to a given “identity.” The Church teaches truth. If something is true, it would be absurd to say “Oh, we don’t believe that in the East.” This seems to be where we get short-circuited in ecumenical “dialogue.” All too frequently, such “dialogue” seems to presuppose a relativism where you speak “your truth” and I’ll speak “my truth” and we’ll just leave it at that. A sort of ecumenical schizophrenia."

[snip]

"If we leave the Catholic position, can we still pretend to be Catholic? "

space wouldn't allow me to further quote this bishop. So I gave the link instead
Quote:
Originally Posted by A

St. John Chrysostom is talking about hell, as is clear from the text when read as a whole. After all, he says that the punishment is "forever," and so I suppose there is no difference between the East and West as long as you believe that St. Augustine's purgatory never ends and is really hell (gehenna).
Here's what you posted again. (emphasis mine)

"If any man have an ill life with a right faith, his faith shall not shelter him from punishment, his work being burnt up. The phrase, "shall be burned up," means, "shall not endure the violence of the fire." But just as if a man having golden armor on were to pass through a river of fire, he comes from crossing it all the brighter; but if he were to pass through it with hay, so far from profiting, he destroys himself besides; so also is the case in regard of men's works. For he does not say this as if he were discoursing of material things being burnt up, but with a view of making their fear more intense, and of showing how naked of all defence he is who abides in wickedness. Wherefore he said, "He shall suffer loss": lo, here is one punishment: "but he himself shall be saved, but so as by fire"; lo, again, here is a second. And his meaning is, He himself shall not perish in the same way as his works, passing into nought, but he shall abide in the fire.

[snip]

I guess I'm not reading this the same way you are. If one goes through this and comes out brighter on the other side, that suggests to me purification.

(quote cont)


"He calls it, however, Salvation, you will say; why, that is the cause of his adding, "so as by fire": since we also used to say, "It is preserved in the fire," when we speak of those substances which do not immediately burn up and become ashes. For do not at sound of the word fire imagine that those who are burning pass into annihilation. And though he call such punishment Salvation, be not astonished. For his custom is in things which have an ill sound to use fair expressions, and in good things the contrary. For example, the word Captivity seems to be the name of an evil thing, but Paul has applied it in a good sense, when he says, "Bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." And again, to an evil thing he has applied a good word, saying, "Sin reigned," here surely the term reigning is rather of auspicious sound. And so here in saying, "he shall be saved," he has but darkly hinted at the intensity of the penalty: as if he had said, "But himself shall remain forever in punishment." (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 9 on 1 Corinthians) "

If one goes to hell, it is an intensity that lasts forever, they are not saved in any sense of the word, there is no getting out. Chrysostom seems to be talking about 2 different cases. One soul is saved through the process, the other isn't. Either way, one comes out shiney on the other side the other remains in the fire.
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Last edited by steve b; Jun 20, '12 at 2:05 pm.
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