Is it wrong in scripture to deny communion? - Page 2

GodHeals · #16 Jun 4, '12, 3:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

There's the do not give that which is holy to dogs verse and it's related verse about don't case pearls before swine. I think those can be understood as commands to withhold something holy from someone who does not hold the faith or who would make mockery of the faith.

Yea, that somewhat makes sense, but please see my last couple posts and see if you can help me make more sense. God Bless!

BobCatholic · #17 Jun 4, '12, 3:59 pm

I would argue where scripture PERMITS this.

He'll interpret the scripture. I'll say "That interpretation is disallowed, I asked for scripture, not tradition."

Then I Cite 1 Cor 11 and say "Scripture says that taking communion like this is a sin. Please tell me where scripture permits someone to help someone sin."

There is no scripture that permits someone to sin, or to help someone to sin.

So therefore, you have an obligation to deny someone communion otherwise you are helping someone sin (and that is a sin!)

johndoe100 · #18 Jun 4, '12, 5:11 pm

The Council of Trent
13th Session - Page 75

Says: *"Conscious to himself" in regards of receiving the Eucharist. *That session ended with something like, "it shall stand forever until Jesus comes." **

That is pretty much in line with (1 Corinthians 11:28) "Let a man examine himself, and so eat of this bread and drink of the cup"

MariaGoretti88 · #19 Jun 4, '12, 6:11 pm

OP, your Protestant friend hasn't been illumined by the Sacrament of Confirmation and therefore will neither understand nor see in the Holy Scriptures that it is up to the shepherds to protect the sheep :/

**NotWorthy** · #20 Jun 4, '12, 6:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodHeals

I understand about protecting the individual's soul, but my question most relates is it the right of a Priest or a Extraordinary Minister to deny communion to those in sin and thus rightly judge them based on knowing their sins or is it up to the individual receiving communion to not receive communion and be judge by God? Ultimately we will stand before God and He will judge the eternal state of our souls.

My protestant friend says it is up to the individual, not anyone else. So, i was seeking scriptures that say it is for us to deny other communion if a person is in sin. Jesus would have known Judas was in sin. And John and the other disciples may also have known, unless that last verse I posted was based on knowing after Judas received communion that he was stealing money.

Thanks for your thoughts!

So a priest should condemn his own soul for giving communion to someone who is obviously leading a sinful life?!?!

I realize it is a slippery slope, and I would expect a priest to be very highly selective before denying someone communion, but a valid case for refusal comes to mind in an incident that recently happened in my area.

A man was considered the local spokesman for the Church. Whenever the daily Mass was televised (each morning at 5:30am), "Bob" (not his real name) was the lector. When the local news would come to the local Church for questions, and the bishop wasn't available to speak, then "Bob" would be available for comment.

Well, one day "Bob" was elected as the local Congressman for the democrat party. Within a year, "Bob" was speaking out in favor of abortion... and all the other democrat niche groups (this was the late 90's). "Bob" would come back to the Beaumont area and court the local Catholic vote. When he attended Mass, it sickened me to think that "Bob" was allowed communion.

Many of our local priests had a huge problem with it as well, but they were loyal to the Bishop who prevented anyone from denying "Bob" communion.

Am I being judgmental? I don't think so. What are your thoughts?

**NotWorthy** · #21 Jun 4, '12, 6:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodHeals

I understand about protecting the individual's soul, but my question most relates is it the right of a Priest or a Extraordinary Minister to deny communion to those in sin and thus rightly judge them based on knowing their sins or is it up to the individual receiving communion to not receive communion and be judge by God? Ultimately we will stand before God and He will judge the eternal state of our souls.

My protestant friend says it is up to the individual, not anyone else. So, i was seeking scriptures that say it is for us to deny other communion if a person is in sin. Jesus would have known Judas was in sin. And John and the other disciples may also have known, unless that last verse I posted was based on knowing after Judas received communion that he was stealing money.

Thanks for your thoughts!

And if you friend still demands a "Scriptural reason"? I know he won't accept it, but I would refer him to Matthew 16:19 - I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Authority - either the Church has it... or it doesn't!

fisherman carl · #22 Jun 4, '12, 7:02 pm

Paul writes to receive the bread and wine worthily in 1 Cor 11. He is writing to Christians that are part of the Church. He is not writing to anybody who thinks he can take the Eucharist. It's obvious a non-Christian could not receive the Eucharist for instance. Nor, could anyone who is out of fellowship with the Church receive the Eucharist. In fact Jesus said in Mt 18:7 that if they do not listen to the Church then to cast them out and treat them like a tax collector so that they can come to their senses and be saved. Obviously, if they are not in communion with the Church they could not receive communion until they repent and go to confession.

In the early Church catechumens did not even know about the Eucharist until after they were baptized. The men and women would be baptized separate because they were baptized in the nude. Men would be baptized by the priests and women by women who were appointed to baptize other women. After baptism they were given a fresh white garment where they would enter the church to greet the assembly who would be waiting to congratulate them. Only then could they participate in the Eucharist. The first part of the Mass, the liturgy of the word, was open to everyone. After that, anyone who was not a baptized member in good standing with the Church was shut out and the doors were barred. Women were left to guard the doors as was an ancient Jewish tradition. It was only then that the liturgy of the Eucharist would commence.

Mintaka · #23 Jun 5, '12, 5:54 am

Noooo, the bishop/priest still baptized the women. The other women just helped the women getting baptized to get undressed and into the water, and then out of the water and dressed in their new white robes, without flashing everybody. It took a bit of choreography with towels and robes, or other screening helps.

Of course, emergencies and missionary trips were a different thing. But the bishop (or later, parish priest) baptized everybody, usually, or said the extra prayers later if emergency baptism people survived. It was part of the reason he was "father" to all the Christians in a place, and the church where people got baptized was their "mother church" or "matrix".

Both women and men guarded doors. If there were separate women's sections and men's sections, then women guarded the women's section. Otherwise, it was mostly the job of the "ostiarii", aka porters or ushers, who were men clergy (albeit a pretty low grade of clergy, well under deacons).

submariner2 · #24 Jun 5, '12, 2:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodHeals

Is it wrong in scripture to deny communion? I am not talking just in a Catholic church, but in general.

My sola scripture protestant friend said it should be left up to the communicant to bring judgement to themselves, and not a Priest or Pastor (Non-Catholic) to judge them by denying them communion. Is there anywhere in scripture that says it is or isn't the place of a Priest or Pastor (Non-Catholic) to deny communion, thus judging the communicant?

I know the verse: 1 Corinthians 11:29

The only point I could make was to protect a person's soul, but that isn't in scripture, unless I am considered my brothers keeper, if that is a scripture that can be applied.. don't think so. Or just plain love? Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Brian

Brian,

Scholars such as Father Raymond Brown say the NT provides no justification for christians to excommunicate each other for minor differences.

"Most of the NT was written before the major breaks in 'koinia'. detectable in the second century, and so NTdiversity cannot be used to justify Christian division today. We modern Christians have broken 'koinonia' with each other, for, explicitly or implicitly, we have excommunicated and/or stated that other christians are disloyal to the will of Christ in major issues. Such a divided situation does not have NT approbation."

Raymond Brown, The Churches The Apostles Left Behind, p 148. Approved with the Imprimatur.

I am thankful my church invites all christians to the Lords Table.

Rob

**NotWorthy** · #25 Jun 5, '12, 4:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by submariner2

I am thankful my church invites all christians to the Lords Table.

Rob

I'm sorry, your church invites all Christians to eat bread/crackers together. They do not participate in the Sacrificial Offering of the Eucharistic, so frankly, the point is moot.

**NotWorthy** · #26 Jun 5, '12, 4:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by submariner2

Brian,

Scholars such as Father Raymond Brown say the NT provides no justification for christians to excommunicate each other for minor differences.

"Most of the NT was written before the major breaks in 'koinia'. detectable in the second century, and so NTdiversity cannot be used to justify Christian division today. We modern Christians have broken 'koinonia' with each other, for, explicitly or implicitly, we have excommunicated and/or stated that other christians are disloyal to the will of Christ in major issues. Such a divided situation does not have NT approbation."

Raymond Brown, The Churches The Apostles Left Behind, p 148. Approved with the Imprimatur.

I am thankful my church invites all christians to the Lords Table.

Rob

Although Raymond Brown feels there is no NT justification, I would say that Peter's treatment of Ananias and Saphira are signs of what happens when one sins greatly; one is separated from the Kingdom (or one dies a spiritual death).