For those who believe in predestination. What was the point of christ's ministry? - Page 2

cajunhillbilly · #16 Aug 9, '12, 5:01 am

A Calvinist believes that not only has God foreordained who will be saved but the means by which they are to be saved. They need the atoning death of Christ to pay for their sins and make them right with God. They need the preaching of the Word and the Sacraments in oder to receive the forgiveness of their sins and growth in holiness. They need the fellowship of the church in order to grow more like Christ. Etc. All these means have also been ordeained by God as the means by which the elect are brought to Jesus in order to be saved. Finally, I have read passages in St Thomas Aquinas, and St Augustine, amongst other Catholic theologians, that sound surprisingly like some forms of Calvinism. I had a friend who took some courses at the Augustinian Seminary near Phillie- there was an exchange program with Westminster Seminary- and he said he thought he was listening to one of the Westminster profs.

ProdglArchitect · #17 Aug 10, '12, 6:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Bartels

If I could modify your comment some . . .

It is Catholic doctrine that God does indeed know everything -- past, present and future. God sees history, the present, and what is going to happen in the future in one single glance, since he is outside of time. You are correct in stating we still make free choices. Our choices of free will can determine our destiny. We are free creatures. But God's knowledge of the future is not merely knowing where our choices may lead; rather he has definitive knowledge of where our choices actually do lead.

If God did not have complete and definitive knowledge of the future, he would not be omniscient; therefore he would not be God.

I was attempting to phrase it so that it would make sense considering our perception of time. I agree that God does know how we're going to end up, what I was attempting to explain was that, regardless of our choices he knows where we end up, but they are still our choices to make. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

Prosmith · #18 Aug 10, '12, 1:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cajunhillbilly

A Calvinist believes that not only has God foreordained who will be saved but the means by which they are to be saved. They need the atoning death of Christ to pay for their sins and make them right with God. They need the preaching of the Word and the Sacraments in oder to receive the forgiveness of their sins and growth in holiness. They need the fellowship of the church in order to grow more like Christ. Etc. All these means have also been ordeained by God as the means by which the elect are brought to Jesus in order to be saved. Finally, I have read passages in St Thomas Aquinas, and St Augustine, amongst other Catholic theologians, that sound surprisingly like some forms of Calvinism. I had a friend who took some courses at the Augustinian Seminary near Phillie- there was an exchange program with Westminster Seminary- and he said he thought he was listening to one of the Westminster profs.

My mother is Catholic and talks very much like a Calvinist.

BrianGular · #19 Aug 14, '12, 8:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjammin

If you are a believer in predestination, what was the point of Christ coming to earth if god already knew that certain people would be saved or damned. I've never heard a good answer from those who do believe in calvinist style predestination, and i'd like to know what most believer in predestination would say.

A sinful man could die to pay the price for his own sins, but it takes a sinless man to pay the price for the sins of others. Christ had to die whether you believe in predestination or not. The real question is not whether Christ had to die, but rather whether predestination (double or single) is true.

For me, the answer is fairly simple. If we have the freedom to choose against God--the freedom to reject Christ's offer of salvation--then God is a cosmic gambler and his will can be thwarted. I can't believe that I have the power to thwart God. Can you imagine the creator of the universe in his throne room saying, "Oh, I really wanted to save Brian. I had a special place in heaven for him. But he turned me down flat. Sigh."?!!? No way!

A friend of mine says that we have free will but that our free will has been corrupted by sin. Adam's sin and the curse that followed it are such that we can no longer choose God. It gives us the illusion of free will, but we are actually constrained. This is what Paul meant when he wrote about us being dead in our sins. We were dead in our inability to choose God. It takes God acting in our lives through the Holy Spirit to overcome our deadness and draw us to Jesus Christ.

I do not understand predestination, but I do know that *both* sides of this argument have the same problem: God could save all but he doesn't. Why doesn't he save everyone? We aren't going to know the answer to that this side of heaven I'm afraid.

cajunhillbilly · #20 Aug 15, '12, 4:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianGular

A sinful man could die to pay the price for his own sins, but it takes a sinless man to pay the price for the sins of others. Christ had to die whether you believe in predestination or not. The real question is not whether Christ had to die, but rather whether predestination (double or single) is true.

For me, the answer is fairly simple. If we have the freedom to choose against God--the freedom to reject Christ's offer of salvation--then God is a cosmic gambler and his will can be thwarted. I can't believe that I have the power to thwart God. Can you imagine the creator of the universe in his throne room saying, "Oh, I really wanted to save Brian. I had a special place in heaven for him. But he turned me down flat. Sigh."?!!? No way!

A friend of mine says that we have free will but that our free will has been corrupted by sin. Adam's sin and the curse that followed it are such that we can no longer choose God. It gives us the illusion of free will, but we are actually constrained. This is what Paul meant when he wrote about us being dead in our sins. We were dead in our inability to choose God. It takes God acting in our lives through the Holy Spirit to overcome our deadness and draw us to Jesus Christ.

I do not understand predestination, but I do know that *both* sides of this argument have the same problem: God could save all but he doesn't. Why doesn't he save everyone? We aren't going to know the answer to that this side of heaven I'm afraid.

And both sides also have the problem that God knows the future and who will and will not be saved. So even those who deny predistination have the problem of God's foreknowledge and man's free will.

fbl9 · #21 Aug 15, '12, 7:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cajunhillbilly

And both sides also have the problem that God knows the future and who will and will not be saved. So even those who deny predistination have the problem of God's foreknowledge and man's free will.

i seen you jump off a tall building i know you are going to go splat when you hit the ground.
Did me knowing you were going to go splat cause you to go splat?

God's foreknowledge is not a problem.
What of the rebilous angels? Did God knowing what they were going to do made them do it?
If God allowed the angels to rebel what of us?

KathleenGee · #22 Aug 20, '12, 7:41 pm

When we immediately look at the word, predestination, we automatically look at the word from a human standpoint, that everything was decided by God and there is nothing we can do, and that is hopeless.

God destined for all of us to be saved.

God 'walks with us' as Jesus did on His last visitation before His glorious ascension into heaven. We are truly given a free will, and reflecting on salvation history there are those of people of faith who told God to leave them alone. There were those in Christian history who likewise did not want to be part of more mysterious level of understanding...but they evolved.

God is all knowing. But He has given us free will. We can pray and do penance and shorten the consequences of our sin in the world.

We can choose to deny God and be lost.

But His plan for us is that He wants all of us saved with Him in heaven and to await a new heaven and earth. This is Catholic understanding of predestination.

East Anglican · #23 Aug 23, '12, 7:46 am

If God has only predestined some, what did Jesus mean by the world?

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Taestron · #24 Aug 23, '12, 10:21 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by East Anglican

If God has only predestined some, what did Jesus mean by the world?

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

I think that God desires all men to be saved. But we must balance this desire with the other evidence, namely that "all who He predestined, He called...., and all who He justified, He glorified." (Romans 8:30) So if we don't hold to that all people are saved, then we must conclude that there are those whom God did not predestine.

KathleenGee · #25 Aug 24, '12, 10:35 am

Just reading this passage of S. John...I don't see any inference to God predestinating anyone to up or down...

Also, in reference to St. Thomas Aquinas and S. Augustine....no single saint can be the true source of who decides to go to heaven or not, who is predestined or not.

The Catholic answer to salvation in our universal catechism that states that all are called to salvation, we are given free will, and that every person in the world has the ability through reason and observing nature (Romans), that we have a creator.

I have come across pagan people who treat their neighbor as their self and are very honest and good. That is the acceptance of grace that comes to a person when they choose to be good or not.

CyberAngel · #26 Aug 25, '12, 4:26 am

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned and do need the glory of God.

Rom 3:12 All have turned out of the way: they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good, there is not so much as one.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, that no man may glory.

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son: that he might be the Firstborn amongst many brethren.
Rom 8:30 And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Maybe it goes like this:
God knows who will accept Jesus
Those are then predestined

I don't think that our will changes God's omnipotent power
Look at all the evil in the world....
Yes - we have free will

I think that it is co-operative with God

KathleenGee · #27 Aug 26, '12, 10:38 am

CyberAngel....

Good follow up.....when I read the passages, I think of those who went to battle the ancient Jews of the Old Testament....and I think of Abel and Cain.....there is a working of grace there...

The passage given us by St. John, who was Christ's beloved apostle, and young and not jaded by life experiences, saw the very essence of Jesus: Love. He rested himself on Christ's breast...

We have to look at the language of predestination in the context that God gave His only beloved Son for our salvation and new life.

And John Paul II also refers to who is open to grace and who is not....as a mystery of God, how even in a single household with all being given the same upbringing...there are those who are built on good soil and those who build themselves on dark soil.

God blesses all of us, all of mankind, and His Providence comes to all mankind. His sun and rain shine and pour on all the peoples of the world, He shows mercy to all.

We have to understand Scripture through the interpreter of the Holy Spirit found in the Church. If we believed in a human understanding of predestination, there would be no use to have faith, hope or love.

So we must remember the purpose of Our Lord, to be atonement for sin, and to extend His presence of mercy, hope, healing, and renewal to everyone.

I just heard on the radio this morning that He is not interested in our perfection, but in our progression in becoming closer to Him on our journey through this world.