Modesty Show Correction

[yukonbrad]

Originally Posted by crimtidegirl

I couldn't disagree more. I think the hijab is a symbol that states that Women are inferior. If it is so wonderful why aren't the Men forced to wear it? Why are they punishing the Women?

There is a basic problem with your disagreement (not that you are free to disagree) The key element of your opposition is that YOU see it as a symbol of inferiority/ oppression. What also you fail to note that in Islamic belief such coverings are considered as an elevation not degredation of women (not that it can be used as a tool of oppression but in many muslim countries it is not even a requirement). What if a woman wishes to wear such coverings, do we have the right to say she has no such freedom? That our personal and cultural beliefs outwiegh her religous convictions and beliefs. When we find something reprehensible. oppressive or demeaning we must consider is it because our own cultural viewpoint or is there a REAL basis for our reaction. I would argue that in this case it is our own cultural beliefs that are in action here.

[TheRealJuliane]

Originally Posted by crimtidegirl

I couldn't disagree more. I think the hijab is a symbol that states that Women are inferior. If it is so wonderful why aren't the Men forced to wear it? Why are they punishing the Women?

Because women are seen as the problem in Islam - men would not be tempted to sin sexually if women didn't have such attractive bodies. So it is up to the women to cover themselves so the men won't sin.

What I see here quite a bit is a fully-clothed (in 100 degree weather!) woman wearing a hijab, and the man with her is in Western clothing, usually a short-sleeved shirt and jeans. It makes a very disturbing contrast.

I have seen a few women in burqas, and I always want to go over to them and explain that this is America, not Saudi Arabia, and they do not have to wear such costumes here. But I fear they will be beaten for it later, so I don't. But it does disturb me greatly.

You can claim that women do this willingly. I believe that dressing modestly should be up to the individual, but this attitude toward women as being a problem is written all the way through Islam.

[yukonbrad]

Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane

have seen a few women in burqas, and I always want to go over to them and explain that this is America, not Saudi Arabia, and they do not have to wear such costumes here. But I fear they will be beaten for it later, so I don't. But it does disturb me greatly.

You can claim that women do this willingly. I believe that dressing modestly should be up to the individual, but this attitude toward women as being a problem is written all the way through Islam.

"This is America" so don't they have the right to dress as they please? Do they not have freedom of religon? By your own admission you have not asked women you have seen dressed in this fashion but you make assumptions based on your own cultural beliefs. You also make assumptions and generalizations of Islam that are not the norm - especially of muslims in the so called western world. The record of the Taliban in Afganistan nor the strictness of Saudi Arabia are how most muslims live (ever been to Jordan, even embattled Syria or how about Turkey).

I have gone to school with muslim men and women and they certianly do not in any way conform to the notions you have come to believe. In fact, if Islam sought to "control" and "oppress" women the last place you, as a muslim father, would want to send your daughter would be a western college or university (and in my own experience a Jesuit run Catholic institution). I even dated a muslim woman in college and yes her family was quite accepting of me and my faith.

At times I find it quite disturbing the views my fellow Catholics seem to hold in regards to Islam on this site. We rail against those who judge our faith out of misconceptions and ignorance and yet we turn around and do the same to others - in what way can we justify this! Christs' message to the world was one of love and peace not division and hate.

[Elisabeth51]

Hijab does not mean scarf---it means covering/protection. It's used in the Bible for God's protection in certain instances (sorry, I don't have my Arabic Bible handy to quote) it is NOT the word used for hair covering referred to by St. Paul.

Western men and women used to hold the same ideals---my body is NOT for public viewing, it is a gift for my husband, and of course my family can see me at home. No Anglo-Saxon woman would have been caught outside showing more than hands, feet, and face. Period.

I do not think it's oppression in most cases. I dress modestly, much like my Muslim friends. I do wear a veil/scarf in the same style as many Muslim women (and check your historical representations of early Medieval women, it's the same or very similar) partly because of a medical condition and I don't have to feel like I LOOK bald or worry about it sliding or slipping off. No one forces me to dress modestly, but I get grief for doing so from people. God did give me a lovely body, one that is for my husband's eyes, not everyone else's eyes. I personally feel much more free dressed modestly. You can dress how you want, but I feel that dressing modestly is a good thing, not an oppression.

Muslim men are supposed to dress modestly as well---I also find it odd to see a woman wearing hijab and the guy wearing short sleeves, maybe these are their personal choices? I know a girl who was Catholic that became Muslim (I didn't meet her until years after she'd marred), she was married for four years before she started wearing hijab---and says it was her choice, her husband never pressured her or said a word. I have a good Muslim friend that wears hijab and she and her husband went to a mosque when they moved to town---her husband was asked why he didn't cover his wife. They went to a different mosque.

[MacBP]

Before I start with my replies I should mention that in my excitement about this thread I told one of my Muslim friends who chose to wear the Hijab. Her response? Gratitude.

Originally Posted by Elisabeth51

Hijab does not mean scarf---it means covering/protection. It's used in the Bible for God's protection in certain instances (sorry, I don't have my Arabic Bible handy to quote) it is NOT the word used for hair covering referred to by St. Paul.

Western men and women used to hold the same ideals---my body is NOT for public viewing, it is a gift for my husband, and of course my family can see me at home. No Anglo-Saxon woman would have been caught outside showing more than hands, feet, and face. Period.

I do not think it's oppression in most cases. I dress modestly, much like my Muslim friends. I do wear a veil/scarf in the same style as many Muslim women (and check your historical representations of early Medieval women, it's the same or very similar) partly because of a medical condition and I don't have to feel like I LOOK bald or worry about it sliding or slipping off. No one forces me to dress modestly, but I get grief for doing so from people. God did give me a lovely body, one that is for my husband's eyes, not everyone else's eyes. I personally feel much more free dressed modestly. You can dress how you want, but I feel that dressing modestly is a good thing, not an oppression.

Muslim men are supposed to dress modestly as well---I also find it odd to see a woman wearing hijab and the guy wearing short sleeves, maybe these are their personal choices? I know a girl who was Catholic that became Muslim (I didn't meet her until years after she'd marred), she was married for four years before she started wearing hijab---and says it was her choice, her husband never pressured her or said a word. I have a good Muslim friend that wears hijab and she and her husband went to a mosque when they moved to town---her husband was asked why he didn't cover his wife. They went to a different mosque.

Thank you for telling your friend's story, and thank you for you input. Yes, that is the attitude I have heard some Muslim women use when talking about the Hijab.

Originally Posted by yukonbrad

"This is America" so don't they have the right to dress as they please? Do they not have freedom of religon? By your own admission you have not asked women you have seen dressed in this fashion but you make assumptions based on your own cultural beliefs. You also make assumptions and generalizations of Islam that are not the norm - especially of muslims in the so called western world. The record of the Taliban in Afganistan nor the strictness of Saudi Arabia are how most muslims live (ever been to Jordan, even embattled Syria or how about Turkey).

I have gone to school with muslim men and women and they certianly do not in any way conform to the notions you have come to believe. In fact, if Islam sought to "control" and "oppress" women the last place you, as a muslim father, would want to send your daughter would be a western college or university (and in my own experience a Jesuit run Catholic institution). I even dated a muslim woman in college and yes her family was quite accepting of me and my faith.

At times I find it quite disturbing the views my fellow Catholics seem to hold in regards to Islam on this site. We rail against those who judge our faith out of misconceptions and ignorance and yet we turn around and do the same to others - in what way can we justify this! Christs' message to the world was one of love and peace not division and hate.

Thank you for your input, and I completely agree. I think that the western world in general needs to make a better attempt at understanding the Muslim world. Islam is a very fast growing religion and its influence will also grow in the Western world. Given how close Islam is to the Catholic Church on many moral issues (they agree on gay marriage, euthanasia, and would also call for a great deal of restriction on abortion. Muslims also tend not to be so enthused about contraceptives depending on the region) The fact is that we could benefit a great deal from working with Islam. I think the in the same way the pro-life movement brought various factions of Christianity together we shall see the wider call war do the same for Abrahamic religions.

Originally Posted by robwar

it is very easy when you live in a free society that gives you rights to wear what you want for any reason. it is very easy to proclaim your faith when you have a right to education, drive a car, have equal protection under the law as a man, be protected from assault, be able to leave your house by yourself without a male relative with you, not have your young daughters be forced to marry, not suffer with female circumcision, be able to work and have your own money. yes it is very easy in a society founded on judeo-christian values.
and yes it is easy to wear beautiful haijbs with matching make-up. However in the muslem countries that have strict Sharia law or are leaning that way, I am sure it is not easy.
Just this week, while at a Dr.'s' office, they had Anthony Beaurden on in his show, "No Reservations". He was in a mulsim country, (i am not sure where) with a female guide going through a very modern shopping mall. She was wearing traditon black Haijb. As they were going through this mall, the shops were filled with slinky western clothes. He asked her about these clothes. She stated that they Can't wear them in public but that they buy high heals and sexy clothes to wear under the tradition wear. She also stated that women get together by themselves to show off their stuff to each other. So i guess it's modesty to the outside world (where your are forced to) but string bikini parties with the girlfriends. I am sure that most of the Muslim women here wearing tradition Haijbs have a heart felt desire to but their status here is protected and in Islamic countries it sadly is not.

A few thoughts on this. I do not disagree that (at least from my perspective) most Muslim countries treat their women poorly. I do not claim to say that Islam is perfect nor any of their associated cultures. I should point out that the picture you paint does not represent the entire Muslim world (Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan were not typical). Friends from the Middle East say that the women are happy there. I don't know that I completely believe them, but there it is.

As for the bikini parties... well it isn't as if its immodest when doing so with one's girlriends. Islam does not teach that beauty is wrong or that the body is evil, it simply teaches that they are of great worthy and should be reserved for the appropriate people.

Originally Posted by crimtidegirl

I couldn't disagree more. I think the hijab is a symbol that states that Women are inferior. If it is so wonderful why aren't the Men forced to wear it? Why are they punishing the Women?

There are dress codes for men prescribed by the Qu'ran. They do not include the Hijab because modest dress means different things for either gender. Men do not wear something similar because, by in large, they are not subject to the same objectification as women. T

[robwar]

Originally Posted by CatholicSheila

It is not immodest to wear a string bikini in front of other women. It is immodest in front of men.

my comment was tongue in cheek, I thought for all the modesty, it think is is a little on the hypocritical side that you are suppose to dress all covered up in public but wear the desirable sexy slinky western clothes underneath. Modesty in more than what clothes one is wearing although on the surface that is what we think it is. Modesty also goes on in the heart and to what one desires to wear and be like as a person. Someone wearing clothing that covers them up because that is Sharia law but wears "so called western styled clothes" underneath is demostrating that what they really want to wear is the junk underneath not the stuff on top.