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  #1  
Old Jun 27, '12, 12:30 pm
Odell Odell is offline
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Default The spirit is not defiled but it's the flesh that sins!

I'm in a discussion with one who says when the heart conforms to the law the spirit is sinless but it's the flesh that is the one tha sins. She says the church does not believe this because the soul must be cleansed in purgatory. This somehow came up in a debate about the immaculate conception.
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  #2  
Old Jun 27, '12, 1:17 pm
SonCatcher SonCatcher is offline
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Default Re: The spirit is not defiled but it's the flesh that sins!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odell View Post
I'm in a discussion with one who says when the heart conforms to the law the spirit is sinless but it's the flesh that is the one tha sins. She says the church does not believe this because the soul must be cleansed in purgatory. This somehow came up in a debate about the immaculate conception.
That form of dualism is a Gnostic heresy. I think the Manichean sect was particularly notorious for this. St. Augustine, due to his Manichean past, refuted their teachings with some of his writings.
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  #3  
Old Jun 27, '12, 1:22 pm
GEddie GEddie is offline
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Default Re: The spirit is not defiled but it's the flesh that sins!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odell View Post
I'm in a discussion with one who says when the heart conforms to the law the spirit is sinless but it's the flesh that is the one tha sins. She says the church does not believe this because the soul must be cleansed in purgatory. This somehow came up in a debate about the immaculate conception.
I hear this one all the time.

But the human body, whether alive or dead, does not contain sin. A doctor could examine you from your forehead to your arches and not find sin (although the physical results of sin might well be there). Likewise, anatomists cannot find sin in or on the dead human body.

Sin resides in the soul, and only then is acted out by body's voice, limbs, or other organs.

That is why sin is paid for AFTER human body's death.

The human body is really the innocent part of our being, although it alone suffers the hideous shamefulness of death. Sin resides behind the forehead long before body gets involved.

ICXC NIKA
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  #4  
Old Jun 27, '12, 1:30 pm
SonCatcher SonCatcher is offline
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Default Re: The spirit is not defiled but it's the flesh that sins!

BTW - for a scriptural refutation of your friend's dualism, take a look at Matthew 15:1-20.

Pay especially close attention to this:



Thus, the sin is not in the physical doing but comes from the heart (i.e. the spirit). Therefore, the spirit must be cleansed of sin (see "whitewashed tomb")
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  #5  
Old Jun 27, '12, 2:06 pm
snarflemike snarflemike is offline
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Default Re: The spirit is not defiled but it's the flesh that sins!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odell View Post
I'm in a discussion with one who says when the heart conforms to the law the spirit is sinless but it's the flesh that is the one tha sins. She says the church does not believe this because the soul must be cleansed in purgatory. This somehow came up in a debate about the immaculate conception.
Ask her how the angels sinned when they had no flesh.
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  #6  
Old Jun 27, '12, 2:45 pm
Odell Odell is offline
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Default Re: The spirit is not defiled but it's the flesh that sins!

Did we ever use Theotokos of Mary to defend against the Gnostics?
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  #7  
Old Jun 27, '12, 4:02 pm
SonCatcher SonCatcher is offline
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Default Re: The spirit is not defiled but it's the flesh that sins!

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Did we ever use Theotokos of Mary to defend against the Gnostics?
I have no idea.
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  #8  
Old Jun 27, '12, 6:02 pm
Mintaka Mintaka is offline
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Default Re: The spirit is not defiled but it's the flesh that sins!

Yes, calling Jesus "the Son of God and the Son of Mary" was a very anti-Gnostic sort of thing.
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