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  #91  
Old Jun 27, '12, 11:11 am
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Lincoln7 Lincoln7 is offline
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Default Re: Cornerstone of our Catholic Faith: 2 Thess 2:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porknpie View Post
Links - the quote above is from Mark 7:9. It has nothing to do with holding the bible over tradition rather Christ was lecturing the pharisees on their purification practices which were external but their not having interior conversion. The Thessalonians quote is very Catholic. No fair in using a Catholic apologetics quote to try proving a Protestant viewpoint! We are to hold to Both scripture and tradition. All Catholics agree! So far, no quote shown that places the bible over tradition.
The verse is clear that if tradition contradicts scripture, it is to be jettisoned.

Well I've provided an exegisis of why I think the verse most certainly does not support the catholic view; it leaves open no idea of development, it tells people to hold to traditions already well known. If the Traditons I listed in my previous post are part of this tradition, let them be demonstrated as a universal Christian belief from the beginning.

Lincs
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  #92  
Old Jun 27, '12, 11:18 am
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Default Re: Cornerstone of our Catholic Faith: 2 Thess 2:15

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Originally Posted by Crumpy View Post
Yes, that seems to be the essential distinction that Paul is making. The oral traditions are separate, different, and equal.

I don't understand how you "put them under scripture" and "test" them? They are equal as Paul says and they are exactly God-breathed.

Orthodoxy have valid sacraments but it rejects Papal primacy and some decrees of the papacy.The Orthodox schism was a heresy against the unity of the Church, based on emotions. Bad move. Read chap 3 of 2nd Thess.
If they are distinct then, partim partim, as I've stated, let the traditions I have listed be demonstrated as apostolic in origin, as clearly held to by the early church, if the cant be found in the earliest fathers, I hardly would view them as apostolic Traditons Paul has in mind.

By putting them under scripture, by testing them, I'm affirming that scripture as the surest witness to apostolic doctrine is the plum line to which any Traditon must be accountable to. My position is not "no Traditon", rather that it is not an infallible source of doctrine not found in scripture.

Im sure the Orthodox would disagree here, which is right?

Lincs
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  #93  
Old Jun 27, '12, 11:52 am
in_servitude in_servitude is online now
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Default Re: Cornerstone of our Catholic Faith: 2 Thess 2:15

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Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
Your post comes down to the classic argument; that Protestants can't agree, some do very wrong things, thus sola scriptura is wrong.
I do wonder if there are any truly honest seekers of Christ coming to the conclusion that abortion is tolerable. If there are, then yes, that does give testimony that the Holy Spirit is not willing to forcibly prevent the error (or immediately correct the error) for each and every individual.

Now, if Christ were to come down and just make it so clear that there was not one single iota of ambiguity as to the authority he left for his Church, then the instant a person rejects his Church, they also instantly overtly reject Christ. The ambiguity allows us to consider all our choices before we pass into our judgement.

Quote:
Where is the connection here? Some communions do allow abortion yes, this makes sola scriptura wrong because? Rather they are not following the clear teaching of scripture on this matter.
This would be one area where the Catholic Church is aligned with your thinking. But, just because you say it "contradicts scripture" doesn't make it so. It's just your opinion. Blah blah blah...

Quote:
Again, if you advocate I need the magisterium as my infallible guide for doctrine, then I must fallibly interpret history and scripture to reach that as my conclusion. The early church is hardly a unanimous testimony in favour of the CC, the whole private interpretation and disagreement argument I find to be lacking, as it simply pushes one back a step; they now have to pick the guide..
As we've already covered - you and I are infested with error in our interpretation of scripture, the assessment of history, the analysis of current day events, and the understanding we have with the spiritual world.

So yes, the only hope of having an infallible guide for doctrine is the Magisterium. Of this, I think we agree. Where we are at odds is the validity of the Magisterium. I suppose it's unfortunate that there isn't any clear cut evidence that the Catholic dogma has run afoul of Sacred Scripture.
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  #94  
Old Jun 27, '12, 12:59 pm
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Default Re: Cornerstone of our Catholic Faith: 2 Thess 2:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
The verse is clear that if tradition contradicts scripture, it is to be jettisoned.

Well I've provided an exegisis of why I think the verse most certainly does not support the catholic view; it leaves open no idea of development, it tells people to hold to traditions already well known. If the Traditons I listed in my previous post are part of this tradition, let them be demonstrated as a universal Christian belief from the beginning.

Lincs
Hi Lincs, I'm still not understanding the relevance of Mark 7:9 as Jesus was speaking to Jewish purification practices verses the need for interior conversion. Agree that tradition does not contradict scripture but, scripture has to be interpreted correctly and tradition believed and followed correctly (also have to have all of scripture and not take out 7 books. ).

Perfect example is the belief in the Eucharist. This belief is not only in scripture but also clearly evident in tradition, since the very first writings of the ECF. Yet the majority of Protestant churches don't believe it. Same is true for the authority of the church, confession, infant baptism, annointing of the sick etc. Protestants misinterpret the bible passages and dismiss the early church teachings (beginning of tradition). Also, the word you use "beginning" stretched over a long period of time. Christ told his disciples to go and preach the good news. The writing down part took a much longer and not everything was written down. The gospel tells us that there were not enough books in all the world to record what Christ did and taught. Hence the importance of the oral tradition handed down through the apostles.

There is no bible passage that puts the bible over tradition. Admittedly that's kind of a trick question. But if you find one, post it and lets talk about it.
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  #95  
Old Jun 27, '12, 1:34 pm
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Default Re: Cornerstone of our Catholic Faith: 2 Thess 2:15

In servitude,
Quote:
I do wonder if there are any truly honest seekers of Christ coming to the conclusion that abortion is tolerable. If there are, then yes, that does give testimony that the Holy Spirit is not willing to forcibly prevent the error (or immediately correct the error) for each and every individual.
I don't claim every individual will be free of error... I do claim the elect will persevere until the end however, not without rough patches though, check out the canons of dort on that one.
Quote:
This would be one area where the Catholic Church is aligned with your thinking. But, just because you say it "contradicts scripture" doesn't make it so. It's just your opinion. Blah blah blah...
Do you think scripture is unclear on the fact that abortion is wrong? Some parts are hard to understand, but this hardly is one..
Quote:
As we've already covered - you and I are infested with error in our interpretation of scripture, the assessment of history, the analysis of current day events, and the understanding we have with the spiritual world.

So yes, the only hope of having an infallible guide for doctrine is the Magisterium. Of this, I think we agree. Where we are at odds is the validity of the Magisterium. I suppose it's unfortunate that there isn't any clear cut evidence that the Catholic dogma has run afoul of Sacred Scripture.
I think one would be hard pressed to demonstrate exegeting an infallible magisterium in scripture.. One could point to lots of places showing apostolic authority yes, but a papacy? Hmm. I would argue the magisterium has taught contrary to the scriptures in numerous areas; a denial of imputed righteousness by faith alone in Christ alone, The Eucharist as a propitiatory Sacrfice, purgatory..

Regards

Lincs
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  #96  
Old Jun 27, '12, 1:43 pm
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Default Re: Cornerstone of our Catholic Faith: 2 Thess 2:15

Porknpie,
Quote:
Hi Lincs, I'm still not understanding the relevance of Mark 7:9 as Jesus was speaking to Jewish purification practices verses the need for interior conversion. Agree that tradition does not contradict scripture but, scripture has to be interpreted correctly and tradition believed and followed correctly (also have to have all of scripture and not take out 7 books.
I quote it simply to state what I stated in my last post; scripture must not be contradicted by tradition.

How often does the magisterium actually infallibly interpret scripture? On ye olde canon debate, I stand with Jerome, Cajetan, Athanasius...the Apostlles.
Quote:
Perfect example is the belief in the Eucharist. This belief is not only in scripture but also clearly evident in tradition, since the very first writings of the ECF. Yet the majority of Protestant churches don't believe it. Same is true for the authority of the church, confession, infant baptism, annointing of the sick etc. Protestants misinterpret the bible passages and dismiss the early church teachings (beginning of tradition). Also, the word you use "beginning" stretched over a long period of time. Christ told his disciples to go and preach the good news. The writing down part took a much longer and not everything was written down. The gospel tells us that there were not enough books in all the world to record what Christ did and taught. Hence the importance of the oral tradition handed down through the apostles.
No, I don't believe in transubstantiation, a concept foreign to scripture and unheard of in the early church. A Lutheran would affirm the corporal presence in the Supper, a form of presence in the fathers must not automatically be seen as transubstantiation.. I hold to Christs true presence in the Eucharist, to the faith of true believers, they feed on him really and indeed, but not in a corporal sense. So; presence does not denote simply that everyone holds the catholic view.

Indeed, when the scriptures were being written, apostolic oral preaching and teaching was the churches foundation. And indeed, not everything was written down. Can the CC bring any non recorded sayings of the Lord? And again, is the Eucharist as a propitiatory sacrifice, purgatory, papal infallibility, the immaculate conception part of this tradition? If so, why are they unheard of in the earliest church?

Regards

Lincs
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  #97  
Old Jun 27, '12, 2:02 pm
in_servitude in_servitude is online now
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Default Re: Cornerstone of our Catholic Faith: 2 Thess 2:15

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Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
No, I don't believe in transubstantiation, a concept foreign to scripture and unheard of in the early church.
Not in scripture? I'm not so sure about that.

John 6:53-56
Quote:
53 Jesus said to them, ďAmen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Without transubstantiation, I do not see how it is possible to do what Jesus is plainly commanding.

Once we pass through the veil and we are judged, we will not be able to say that Jesus wasn't clear on this one.
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  #98  
Old Jun 27, '12, 2:12 pm
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Default Re: Cornerstone of our Catholic Faith: 2 Thess 2:15

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Originally Posted by in_servitude View Post
Not in scripture? I'm not so sure about that.

John 6:53-56

Without transubstantiation, I do not see how it is possible to do what Jesus is plainly commanding.

Once we pass through the veil and we are judged, we will not be able to say that Jesus wasn't clear on this one.
I also belive that true believers partake of the true body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist, really and indeed. They truly eat his flesh and drink his blood.. But i dont hold to transubstantiation. However, this passage to me seems much more to be taken in terms of believing, with eating and drinking also meaning believing in Christ.

See Calvin's commentary here; http://m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom34.xii.ix.html
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  #99  
Old Jun 27, '12, 2:12 pm
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Default Re: Cornerstone of our Catholic Faith: 2 Thess 2:15

Lincs, help me a understand your background more than Christian and Protestant. What church do you belong to? This would help the Catholic's in our responses back to you.

Thank you.
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  #100  
Old Jun 27, '12, 2:15 pm
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Lincoln7 Lincoln7 is offline
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Default Re: Cornerstone of our Catholic Faith: 2 Thess 2:15

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Originally Posted by Porknpie View Post
Lincs, help me a understand your background more than Christian and Protestant. What church do you belong to? This would help the Catholic's in our responses back to you.

Thank you.
Reformed Charismatic.

Kind regards

Lincs
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  #101  
Old Jun 27, '12, 2:17 pm
in_servitude in_servitude is online now
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Default Re: Cornerstone of our Catholic Faith: 2 Thess 2:15

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Do you think scripture is unclear on the fact that abortion is wrong? Some parts are hard to understand, but this hardly is one..
Abortion is not covered in scripture.

Murder is a sin, obviously. That is covered nicely. But, a person influenced by the author of lies and confusion might say that abortion is ok since the bible doesn't directly say, "Don't kill the unborn." And, they might also argue the whole "when does life begin?" question.

This treads right on top of today's hot topic: the evil of contraception. For over 95% of the history of Christianity, contraception was viewed as against the teachings of Christ. Both contraception and abortion (and even infanticide) were practiced at the time of Christ. So, the 95% number is valid. Tradition!

Even most laity in the Catholic Church are in the fog on this one today. But, sadly, the evil of abortion will likely persist with the use of contraception.

And so it goes... Without some kind of foundation or anchor, Satan will more easily push people further and further away from holiness. History shows that it is going to get worse with time.

In my own case, I was certainly irritated by the Catholic Church's teaching on contraception. But, it is that anchor that has pulled me back to the proper perspective.
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