Current Book Discussion -

[GraceSofia]

Originally Posted by DesertSister62

However, in all of this I could not find a Salvation event forshadowed by this temptation. Unless you mean where we discover that we have a belief in God as He is revealed in scripture and we then reach out to him in faith.

DesertSister62

Desert Sister,

Yes, I think that is one way of putting it, and what Pope Benedict is saying in the last complete paragraph on page 37.

More specifically, at the bottom of that page, he says, "From this scene on the pinnacle of the Temple, though, we can look out and see the Cross. Christ did not throw himself off the pinnacle at the devil's bidding or to tempt God or for His gain, but He "descended into the abyss of death, into the night of abandonment, and into the desolation of the defenseless. He ventured this leap as an act of God's love for men."

For us. Wow. Just like He didn't turn stones into bread for Himself when He was hungry, but He gave us the bread of life, the Eucharist.

[GraceSofia]

Originally Posted by catholictiger

just quickly i'm sorry i haven't been discussing this as much recently i've been super busy with things just got back from a retreat have studying to do all week which involves a good bit of reading so hopefully I can catch up with you guys but it may be though

We look forward to when you can join us.

[catholictiger]

i can't wait either, i've read this in parts so if there is a chapter I read and have marked in my book then Ill join the discussion

[GraceSofia]

Chapter Two: The Third Temptation

Here are some questions to think about as we read. Please feel free to share whatever strikes you as you read. There was a lot here in these few pages, and some ideas I've never come across before, such as the information about Barabbas.

* What is the Third Temptation (according to St. Matthew's sequence, which is the one used by the Pope)? p. 38

* What form has this temptation taken for the Church throughout history?

* Pope Benedict points out some contrasts, such as the devil's power being limited vs Jesus having power in Heaven and Earth. What other contrasts does he bring out?

* What two forms of Messianic belief are represented by Jesus and Barabbas? p. 40
What does the name "Bar-Abbas" mean?
What was the other name given to Barbbas insome very early manuscripts/
What was the significance of the choice between Barabass and Jesus (what was it really)?

* What form does the Third Temptation take in the modern world?

* "What did Jesus actually bring, if not world peace, universal prosperity, and a better world?" p.44

[DesertSister62]

Hey GraceSofia,

I have tried for two days to answer your questions and the days just got away from me. In the morning there is nothing else I have to do so I will review the pages then and type you a reply! I appreciate your taking the time to do this and it helps those others who are reading but who don't want to post.

But for now I must get to bed!

Blessings!
DesertSister62

[GraceSofia]

DS,

I hope it is some help. His writing is very dense. If you consider that the book is the distillation of the thoughts of a great theologian... it's heavy-going. I was tempted to buy the study guide, but then I thought, no, if it is too easy, I won't get as much out of it. So we'll just muddle along together.

People may be interest in this article by Fr. Schall on Chapter Two:
"God Is The Issue" | The Temptation in the Desert and the Kingdoms of This World

"The alleged findings of scholarly exegesis have been used to put together the most dreadful books that destroy the figure of Jesus and dismantle faith." -- Benedict XVI, Jesus of Nazareth, 35.

"Earthly kingdoms remain earthly human kingdoms, and anyone who claims to be able to establish the perfect world is the willing dupe of Satan and plays the world right into his hands." -- Benedict XVI, Jesus of Nazareth, 44.

[DesertSister62]

Hey all!

Okay, this is Chapter Two: The Third Temptation

I have to be honest and say that by the time I finished trying to answer the questions, my eyes were almost crossed so if I didn't get it exactly right, just chalk it down to being very tired! Pope Benedict XVI has the mind of a scholar and I am learning from his book, but as you said earlier,....it certainly isn't easy! If anyone sees something that needs to be corrected, please do! I don't want to inadvertantly give out the wrong information! Now, on to the questions and thanks much to GraceSofia who tries mightily to help me by coming up with these questions!

Q. What is the third temptation (according to Sr. Matthew's sequence, which is the one used by the Pope?)

A. According to St. Matthew; the third temptation is when the devil takes the Lord in a vision unto a high mountain. He shows him all the kingdoms of the earth and their splendor and offers Him kingship over the world. But Jesus already has that as that is the mission of the Messiah! In fact, with Jesus the power He has goes one further; He is not only the power on earth but in heaven also and only someone who has the fullness of authority has the real, saving power. Without heaven, earthly power is always ambiguous and fragile. Only when power submits to God can it become power for good. Jesus has this power in virtue of his Resurrection. This means that it presupposes the cross, His death, and His resurrection.

Q. What form has this temptation taken for the Church throughout history?

A. Throughout history this temptation has constantly taken new forms in the Church. The Christian empire attempted at an early stage to use the faith in order to cement political unity. The Kingdom of Christ was now expected to take the form of a political kingdom and its splendor. Evidently, the powers that be thought that the "powerlessness of Jesus Christ" was to be given the helping hand of political and military might.

This temptation to use power to secure the faith has arisen again and again in varied forms throughout the centuries, and again and again faith has risked being suffocated in the embrace of power. This continuing struggle of the Church to avoid identifying Jesus' Kingdom with any political structure, is one that has to be fought century after century for the fusion of faith and political power always comes at a price; faith becomes the servant of power and must bend to its criteria.

(I skipped the next one and you will find it on the bottom when I have finally answered it)

Q. What two forms of Messianic belief are represented by Jesus and Barabbas? p. 40

A. "Barabbas was a robber," and the Greek word for robber had acquired a specific meaning in the political situation that obtained at the time in Palestine. It had become a synonym for "resistance fighter." Barabbas had taken part in an uprising and in that context had been accused of murder. The fact that Matthew remarks that Barabbas was "a notorious prisoner" means that he was one of the prominent resistance fighters, in fact probably the actual leader of that particular uprising.

The text says that Barabbas was a messianic figure. In fact his name was the cultic name of a prominent leader of the messianic movement. In the scripture he figures as sort of an alter ego of Jesus, who makes the same claim but understands it in a totally different way. So the choice is between a Messiah who leads an armed struggle, promises freedom and a kingdom of one's own , and this mysterious Jesus who proclaims that losing oneself is the way to life.
　
Q. What does the name "Bar-Abbas" mean?

A. The name Barabbas means, "son of the father."

Q. What was the other name given to Barabbas in some very early manuscripts?

A. Up until the third century, many manuscripts of the Gospels referred to the man in question here as "Jesus Barabbas", which means "Jesus son of the father."

Q. What was the significance of the choice between Barabbas and Jesus (what was it really)?

A. So the choice is between a Messiah who leads an armed struggle, promises freedom and a kingdom of one's own , and this mysterious Jesus who proclaims that losing oneself is the way to life. The temptor is not so obvious as to suggest to us directly that we should worship the devil. He merely suggests that we opt for the reasonable decision, that we choose to give priority to a planned and thoroughly organized world, where God may have his place as a private concern but must not interfere in our essential purposes.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.To be continued on second page

[DesertSister62]

Page Two of questions on Third Temptation:

Q. What form does the Third Temptation take in the modern world?

A. In the modern world the temptation appears in the form of a question. "What did Jesus bring, then, if he didn't usher in a better world? How can that not be the content of Messianic hope?" We constantly tell Jesus that his message leads to conflict with the prevailing opinions, so that there is always a looming threat of failure, suffering, and persecution! The Christian empire or the secular power of the papacy is no longer a temptation today, but the interpretation of Christianity as a recipe for progress and the proclamation of universal prosperity, as the real goal of all religions, including Christianity. Jesus' third temptation proves, then, to be the fundamental one, because it concerns the question as to what sort of action is expected of a savior of the world. Is is now, in the familiar conversation with Peter that Jesus sees the presence of the temptor and it is here that the Lord declares that the concept of the Messiah has to be understood in terms of the entirety of the message of the Prophets--it means not worldly power, but the Cross, and the radically different community that comes into being through the Cross.

Q. "What did Jesus actually bring, if not world peace, universal prosperity, and a better world?" p.44

A. The answer is very simple, : Jesus brought God. He has brought the God who formerly unveiled his countenance gradually, then to Moses, and the Propets, and then in the Wisdom Literature--the God who revealed his face only in Israel, even though he was also honored among the pagans in various shadowy guises. It is this God, whom he was brought to the nations of the earth. He has brought God, ;the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the true God whom he has brought to the nations of the earth. He has brought God, and now we know his face, now we call call upon Him. Jesus brought God and with God the truth about our origin and destiny: faith, hope, and love. It is only because of the hardness of our hearts that we think this is too little. God's power, works quietly in this world, but it is the true and lasting power.

Actually, I don't have that one question answered yet and I want to post this last part so I will go ahead and address that one question in a later post. For me, all of the questions seemed to overlap so it has been difficult for me to find a nice straight forward answer. I'm not complaining, just explaining. Benedict is very deep and there are few brief answers for us novices!

__________________________________

[DesertSister62]

I moved this thread over to the new thead on the group site. That way it is much easier to keep track of and also keeps us where we can read the wall posts from time to time.

I moved the last four posts so we would know where we are in discussing the book.

By the way, where are the rest of you in your reading? I was seeing you all from time to time but now I never so much as catch a glimpse. Where are you hiding?

DesertSister62

[BGorski]

Is this still an active Book Club??

[GraceSofia]

No, this is no longer active. I believe there is another book discussion somewhere. I suggest you pm DesertSister62.