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  #1  
Old Jan 16, '12, 6:33 pm
Dbter Dbter is offline
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Default Chosen Elect and Heaven

Just a little background about myself. I have recently within the last two years tried to understand my catholic faith. By that I mean doing more then just going to church. After two years of dwelling into the bible I have even more questions then answers. So I am not trying to sound condemning just trying to work it out in my head. Now when I go to mass I am not understanding some things the priest says and prayers that we say during the mass. It seems to me that Catholicism and Christianity for that matter limits the discussion or understanding of what Heaven or how we get there for that matter really is. So a few questions: It seems the mass uses the terms Chosen and Elect interchangeably. As if we are the Elect that God has chosen. This can not be because the Elect in the bible that will accompany Jesus during his second coming come from the twelve Israelite tribes. Also the Elect must have been persecuted for their faith. I guess some can argue that Catholics are persecuted for their faith. But none of us unless a Jewish convert can be considered the elect. Second of all, we believe that Jesus' Kingdom will have no end. However in the bible there is a differentiation between the "Kingdom of Heaven" and Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is Jesus Kingdom here on earth that will last for a thousand years before the beast is unbound for a second time. After a second Armageddon, resurrection of the dead and judgement, Jesus will hand over the keys to the Kingdom as Heaven descends like a "bride".
So when we are chosen, are we saying we are chosen for the kingdom of heaven, the one talked about in the Lords Prayer or the heaven that will descend upon the earth after Jesus's reign? Thanks for your input.
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  #2  
Old Jan 17, '12, 1:00 am
Todd Easton Todd Easton is offline
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Default Re: Chosen Elect and Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbter View Post
So a few questions: It seems the mass uses the terms Chosen and Elect interchangeably. As if we are the Elect that God has chosen. This can not be because the Elect in the bible that will accompany Jesus during his second coming come from the twelve Israelite tribes.
St. Paul refers to the Christians at Colossi, who had received Christian baptism yet were uncircumcized in the flesh (Col 2:11-13), as God's elect (Col 3:12). Similarly, he refers to God's election of the Christians at Thessalonica (1 Thess 1:4), who through his preaching of the Gospel turned to God from idols (1 Thess 1:9). So, I think your assumption that the elect in Scripture refers only to those from the twelve tribes of Israel is incorrect.
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  #3  
Old Jan 17, '12, 7:19 am
jmoneyideas jmoneyideas is offline
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Default Re: Chosen Elect and Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Easton View Post
St. Paul refers to the Christians at Colossi, who had received Christian baptism yet were uncircumcized in the flesh (Col 2:11-13), as God's elect (Col 3:12). Similarly, he refers to God's election of the Christians at Thessalonica (1 Thess 1:4), who through his preaching of the Gospel turned to God from idols (1 Thess 1:9). So, I think your assumption that the elect in Scripture refers only to those from the twelve tribes of Israel is incorrect.
I agree, The OP is looking into it a the 12 tribes of Israel...Those who come to hear and accept Jesus are the Elect. St.Paul says this all through the Epistles.
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  #4  
Old Jan 17, '12, 10:35 am
fred conty fred conty is online now
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Default Re: Chosen Elect and Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbter View Post
Just a little background about myself. I have recently within the last two years tried to understand my catholic faith. By that I mean doing more then just going to church. After two years of dwelling into the bible I have even more questions then answers. So I am not trying to sound condemning just trying to work it out in my head. Now when I go to mass I am not understanding some things the priest says and prayers that we say during the mass. It seems to me that Catholicism and Christianity for that matter limits the discussion or understanding of what Heaven or how we get there for that matter really is. So a few questions: It seems the mass uses the terms Chosen and Elect interchangeably. As if we are the Elect that God has chosen. This can not be because the Elect in the bible that will accompany Jesus during his second coming come from the twelve Israelite tribes. Also the Elect must have been persecuted for their faith. I guess some can argue that Catholics are persecuted for their faith. But none of us unless a Jewish convert can be considered the elect. Second of all, we believe that Jesus' Kingdom will have no end. However in the bible there is a differentiation between the "Kingdom of Heaven" and Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is Jesus Kingdom here on earth that will last for a thousand years before the beast is unbound for a second time. After a second Armageddon, resurrection of the dead and judgement, Jesus will hand over the keys to the Kingdom as Heaven descends like a "bride".
So when we are chosen, are we saying we are chosen for the kingdom of heaven, the one talked about in the Lords Prayer or the heaven that will descend upon the earth after Jesus's reign? Thanks for your input.
In the Apocalypse is described a prophetic vision, saying that Satan will be shackled and imprisoned for 1000 years, while the dead come to life and reign with Christ. At the end of this time, Satan will be free but expelled forever, and then comes the 2nd resurrection. Some religious groups, JW, take this literally instead of being a fiigure of speech. These groups are called Millenarists, meaning "a thousand years". This does not sync with Christ's prophecies, and is rejected by the Church as the Millenarist heresy.

Some Catholic theologians believe that this means there will be a long time(1000) before the world's end, and the church will be in peace.

Others see this time period(1000) starting at Jesus' birth when Satan was shackled. Then all the baptised are considered resurrected the 1st time in Christ and have their 2nd resurrection at the end of the world.

Ajoining this is the idea that those not baptised are 1st dead by sin, and the 2nd death is hell at the end.
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  #5  
Old Jan 17, '12, 10:59 am
fred conty fred conty is online now
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Default Re: Chosen Elect and Heaven

(Cont.)

There is also a spiritual way that this eschatology may be taken in the fourth Gospel of John.

"In this way, the 'coming' of the Son of Man is interpreted primarily as the 'coming' of Jesus to this world through his Incarnation, his 'lifting up' on the cross, and his return to his own disciples through the Holy Spirit. In the same way the 'judgement' is presented as something working here and now in the soul, and eternal life (John's counterpart of the Synoptic 'kingdom') is made to be something actually present, already in the possession of those who have faith."

From the Introduction to Saint John from the Jerusalem Bible p.141.
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  #6  
Old Jan 17, '12, 11:45 am
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bmullins bmullins is offline
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Default Re: Chosen Elect and Heaven

I think the problem is you are looking at Revelations and seeing the 144,000 and assuming those are the only elect. You must also look at the rest of that portion:





There won't only be 144,000 in heaven.
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  #7  
Old Jan 17, '12, 12:33 pm
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: Chosen Elect and Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbter View Post
Just a little background about myself. I have recently within the last two years tried to understand my catholic faith. By that I mean doing more then just going to church. After two years of dwelling into the bible I have even more questions then answers. So I am not trying to sound condemning just trying to work it out in my head. Now when I go to mass I am not understanding some things the priest says and prayers that we say during the mass. It seems to me that Catholicism and Christianity for that matter limits the discussion or understanding of what Heaven or how we get there for that matter really is. So a few questions: It seems the mass uses the terms Chosen and Elect interchangeably. As if we are the Elect that God has chosen. This can not be because the Elect in the bible that will accompany Jesus during his second coming come from the twelve Israelite tribes. Also the Elect must have been persecuted for their faith. I guess some can argue that Catholics are persecuted for their faith. But none of us unless a Jewish convert can be considered the elect. Second of all, we believe that Jesus' Kingdom will have no end. However in the bible there is a differentiation between the "Kingdom of Heaven" and Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is Jesus Kingdom here on earth that will last for a thousand years before the beast is unbound for a second time. After a second Armageddon, resurrection of the dead and judgement, Jesus will hand over the keys to the Kingdom as Heaven descends like a "bride".
So when we are chosen, are we saying we are chosen for the kingdom of heaven, the one talked about in the Lords Prayer or the heaven that will descend upon the earth after Jesus's reign? Thanks for your input.
I'd spend some time now reading the Catechism; Scripture will be better understood as the Catechism sheds light on its meaning.The CC rejects the belief that Jesus will physically reign for 1000 years on earth.

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578

Also the Church is considered to be the new Israel:

60 The people descended from Abraham would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church.18 They would be the root on to which the Gentiles would be grafted, once they came to believe.19

759 "The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,"150 to which he calls all men in his Son. "The Father . . . determined to call together in a holy Church those who should believe in Christ."151 This "family of God" is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father's plan. In fact, "already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvelous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and the old Alliance. Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time."152
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  #8  
Old Jan 18, '12, 2:01 pm
Contarini Contarini is offline
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Default Re: Chosen Elect and Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbter View Post
J This can not be because the Elect in the bible that will accompany Jesus during his second coming come from the twelve Israelite tribes. Also the Elect must have been persecuted for their faith. I guess some can argue that Catholics are persecuted for their faith. But none of us unless a Jewish convert can be considered the elect. Second of all, we believe that Jesus' Kingdom will have no end. However in the bible there is a differentiation between the "Kingdom of Heaven" and Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is Jesus Kingdom here on earth that will last for a thousand years before the beast is unbound for a second time. After a second Armageddon, resurrection of the dead and judgement, Jesus will hand over the keys to the Kingdom as Heaven descends like a "bride".
What is your reason for holding to these views, which are peculiar to a certain kind of Protestant theology called dispensationalism?

This is not how Christians have historically interpreted Scripture, and you give you reasons for your interpretations--you simply state them as if they were self-evident, which they are not.

Edwin
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  #9  
Old Jan 24, '12, 9:03 am
Dbter Dbter is offline
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Default Re: Chosen Elect and Heaven

Jmoneyideas, in response to your statement that those that hear God and accept his calling are the "Elect"; are the ones that God calls, the "Chosen", or do we believe all people are called?
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