How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

[Sirach2]

For T More who asked us to present any papal teachings that existed prior to Vatican II on the subject of baptism of desire with connection to invincible ignorance.


- Blessed Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadam, 1854

"...It is to be held for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not bound by any fault in this matter in the eyes of the Lord. Now truly, who would arrogate so much to himself, as to be able to designate the limits of this kind of ignorance, because of the reason and variety of peoples, regions, natural dispositions, and a great many other things?..."


Venerable Pope Pius IX, Quanto conficiamur moerore

We all know that those who are afflicted with invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion,
if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law that have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can attain eternal life by the power of divine light and grace. For God, Who reads comprehensively in every detail the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accordance with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal torments (suppliciis).


Pope St. Pius X, Catechism of Christian Doctrine, para. 132

A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church

[Sirach2]

Originally Posted by DavidJoseph

It would help if we further examined some de fide decrees of the Church on Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus. Catholic apologist whose Internet "handle" is Matt1618 explores three of them here (T More, are you reading this?).

It's really nice to see a new face in this thread. I've read this apologist's explanation before, and have it saved. He does a great job! Your post was short and sweet, but very potent, so I'm bumping it lest it be buried.

[DavidJoseph]

Originally Posted by Sirach2

It's really nice to see a new face in this thread. I've read this apologist's explanation before, and have it saved. He does a great job! Your post was short and sweet, but very potent, so I'm bumping it lest it be buried.

Thanks. Oh, and there's something I forgot to add earlier -- to certain people who have been accusing fellow Catholics of heterodoxy, heresy, etc. (whether explicitly or implicitly) on this thread -- not accepting the rigorist version of EENS (which is NOT endorsed by the Church, although tolerated) does NOT mean one doesn't accept the dogma at all. To claim otherwise is to commit the serious sin of rash judgment.

[mangy dog]

I gave up on trying to understand or decipher Vatican II long time ago.

Instead what I did was to attempt to maintain as much tradition as possible in my life of prayer and of the spirit, nurtured by the Sacraments of Confession and Communion.

I'm glad I held out for so many years because God has graced us with his servants: Pope Paul VI; Pope John Paul I; Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

These holy popes saw and understood Vatican II and brought to light the fact that Vatican II did not abrogate any of the Sacred Traditions of the catholic church. That!! is an important fact that seemed to go unnoticed for many years with catholics....especially in these United States.

[DavidJoseph]

Originally Posted by mangy dog

I gave up on trying to understand or decipher Vatican II long time ago.

Instead what I did was to attempt to maintain as much tradition as possible in my life of prayer and of the spirit, nurtured by the Sacraments of Confession and Communion.

I'm glad I held out for so many years because God has graced us with his servants: Pope Paul VI; Pope John Paul I; Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

These holy popes saw and understood Vatican II and brought to light the fact that Vatican II did not abrogate any of the Sacred Traditions of the catholic church. That!! is an important fact that seemed to go unnoticed for many years with catholics....especially in these United States.