The Ascension, Pentecost, & Christ Seen 40 Days

[E Thrower II]

I've been debating with an associate of mine for the past month or so, who like many, believes the ascension (Christ presenting his sacrifice before God to be accepted for us) was 40 days after his resurrection, referring to his being taken up by a cloud as stated in Acts.

However, this argument does not address the issue of why Jesus instructed Mary not to touch him but go tell my disciples I go unto the Father and then later tells Thomas to touch him.

Why tell Mary not to touch Him but then tell Thomas to touch Him? Why tell Mary to go tell His Disciples He was going unto the Father and then not go but wait another 40 days?

I recently came across this in Leviticus, of which we know the law is a shadow of good things to come as stated in Hebrews, and that Christ came to fulfill the law as He stated in Matthew 5:17.

Leviticus 23:9-17
9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD. 13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. 14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

A sheaf - a dry measure (i.e. 1 cup, 1 1/2 cup, &.c.)
The first fruits - Christ (i.e. 1 Cor. 15:20-23)
Harvest - The resurrection unto eternal life
The morrow after the sabbath - Jewish sabbath was from Friday to Saturday. The morrow after is Sunday, the day Christ rose.

Christ told Mary not to touch him because he had to, figuratively speaking, wave the sheaf before the Lord: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. After doing so, He came back that evening and said to His disciples, "Peace be unto you" and later allowed Thomas to touch Him because His work had already been accepted perfect and spotless by God.

15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths (49 days) shall be complete: 16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath (Sunday) shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. 17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.

Fifty days - Pentecost/The fiftieth day (i.e. Acts 2)
A new meat offering/baken with leaven - other meat offerings were without leaven because they were figures of Christ (without sin), this is with leaven because it is a figure of those that are Christ's, who are not without sin.
They are the first fruits - Those that are Christ's (i.e. John 12:23-24, James 1:18)

This is clearly a figure of the coming of the Holy Ghost unto those that are Christ's, a new meat offering (not without leaven). (i.e. Rom 12:1-2)

And what of the forty days?

Simply put, I believe as Moses was in Mount Sinai for forty days and forty nights, when he came down from the cloud the people received the law on tables of stone.

Christ was among His disciples for forty days and when he was taken up by a cloud, we too received the law written on fleshier tables of the heart (i.e. 2 Cor. 3:3), and imprinted in our minds through the work of the Holy Ghost, ten days (i.e. not many days hence) after He was taken up by a cloud.

Thoughts?

[TimothyH]

I don't know anything about touching Christ or waving sheafs. I have never heard any teaching by the Church or read anything about that, but the the number 50 is significant because the golden calf incident occured 50 days after leaving Egypt.

The Levites carried out the command of Moses, and that day there fell about three thousand of the people. (Exodus 32:28)

Christ was the new Moses, who completed what Moses was unable to complete.

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. (Acts 2:41)

3000 fell at Mt. Sinai, but 3000 were added at Pentecost. Mt. Sinia was reversed. The second exodus which Jesus "was going to accomplish in Jerusalem" (cf Luke 9:31) was effective, whereas the first exodus of Moses was not.


-Tim-

[E Thrower II]

Originally Posted by TimothyH

I don't know anything about touching Christ or waving sheafs. I have never heard any teaching by the Church or read anything about that, but the the number 50 is significant because the golden calf incident occured 50 days after leaving Egypt.

The Levites carried out the command of Moses, and that day there fell about three thousand of the people. (Exodus 32:28)

Christ was the new Moses, who completed what Moses was unable to complete.

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. (Acts 2:41)

3000 fell at Mt. Sinai, but 3000 were added at Pentecost. Mt. Sinia was reversed. The second exodus which Jesus "was going to accomplish in Jerusalem" (cf Luke 9:31) was effective, whereas the first exodus of Moses was not.


-Tim-

Hey Tim,

Could you tell me more of how you came about the knowledge of the calf incident being fifty days after leaving egypt?

And if you may, tell me how long did it take Moses to receive the second set of tables from the time he broke the first?

[De Maria]

Originally Posted by E Thrower II

I've been debating with an associate of mine for the past month or so, who like many, believes the ascension (Christ presenting his sacrifice before God to be accepted for us) was 40 days after his resurrection, referring to his being taken up by a cloud as stated in Acts.

However, this argument does not address the issue of why Jesus instructed Mary not to touch him but go tell my disciples I go unto the Father and then later tells Thomas to touch him.

Why tell Mary not to touch Him but then tell Thomas to touch Him? Why tell Mary to go tell His Disciples He was going unto the Father and then not go but wait another 40 days?

I recently came across this in Leviticus, of which we know the law is a shadow of good things to come as stated in Hebrews, and that Christ came to fulfill the law as He stated in Matthew 5:17.

Leviticus 23:9-17
9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD. 13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. 14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

A sheaf - a dry measure (i.e. 1 cup, 1 1/2 cup, &.c.)
The first fruits - Christ (i.e. 1 Cor. 15:20-23)
Harvest - The resurrection unto eternal life
The morrow after the sabbath - Jewish sabbath was from Friday to Saturday. The morrow after is Sunday, the day Christ rose.

Christ told Mary not to touch him because he had to, figuratively speaking, wave the sheaf before the Lord: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. After doing so, He came back that evening and said to His disciples, "Peace be unto you" and later allowed Thomas to touch Him because His work had already been accepted perfect and spotless by God.

15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths (49 days) shall be complete: 16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath (Sunday) shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. 17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.

Fifty days - Pentecost/The fiftieth day (i.e. Acts 2)
A new meat offering/baken with leaven - other meat offerings were without leaven because they were figures of Christ (without sin), this is with leaven because it is a figure of those that are Christ's, who are not without sin.
They are the first fruits - Those that are Christ's (i.e. John 12:23-24, James 1:18)

This is clearly a figure of the coming of the Holy Ghost unto those that are Christ's, a new meat offering (not without leaven). (i.e. Rom 12:1-2)

And what of the forty days?

Simply put, I believe as Moses was in Mount Sinai for forty days and forty nights, when he came down from the cloud the people received the law on tables of stone.

Christ was among His disciples for forty days and when he was taken up by a cloud, we too received the law written on fleshier tables of the heart (i.e. 2 Cor. 3:3), and imprinted in our minds through the work of the Holy Ghost, ten days (i.e. not many days hence) after He was taken up by a cloud.

Thoughts?

I appreciate your well thought out explanation. I had never even considered that Jesus had told Mary not to touch Him and then instructed Thomas to touch Him.

Very well thought out and it sounds true to me. Thanks for providing this.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Originally Posted by E Thrower II

Hey Tim,

Could you tell me more of how you came about the knowledge of the calf incident being fifty days after leaving egypt?

And if you may, tell me how long did it take Moses to receive the second set of tables from the time he broke the first?

I heard about it in this video. It is near the end of the video that Brother Robbins explains some of the aspects of the relationship between the Catholic and Jewish Festivals.

Nothing there contradicts your explanation. It is simply additional information.

[E Thrower II]

Originally Posted by De Maria

I heard about it in this video. It is near the end of the video that Brother Robbins explains some of the aspects of the relationship between the Catholic and Jewish Festivals.

Nothing there contradicts your explanation. It is simply additional information.

It's at 35 minutes and 30 seconds. AWESOME!

[JonathonofOhio]

The Church Father's all seem to indicate that the reason Mary was forbidden to touch Jesus (hold on to him) was because she did not view Jesus as equal to the Father. The clue is in her words when she calls him "Master", and his response. Jesus had told them that He was their friend (John 15:15), not their master. So she reached out to the flesh, not to the Godhead, and so Christ commands her not to touch her, because she did not yet believe. Instead she is sent as a servant of the Church, a messenger, to go and tell the others that the Lord has risen and will ascend. So He says, "my God and your God" and "My Father and your Father"...he did not say "our Father" or "Our God", because he was saying 'in one sense yours and in another sense mine.'-- by nature my Father, by grace your Father. My God; under whom I also am as man; your God, between whom and you I am mediator.

[tabycat]

Originally Posted by JonathonofOhio

The Church Father's all seem to indicate that the reason Mary was forbidden to touch Jesus (hold on to him) was because she did not view Jesus as equal to the Father. The clue is in her words when she calls him "Master", and his response. Jesus had told them that He was their friend (John 15:15), not their master. So she reached out to the flesh, not to the Godhead, and so Christ commands her not to touch her, because she did not yet believe. Instead she is sent as a servant of the Church, a messenger, to go and tell the others that the Lord has risen and will ascend. So He says, "my God and your God" and "My Father and your Father"...he did not say "our Father" or "Our God", because he was saying 'in one sense yours and in another sense mine.'-- by nature my Father, by grace your Father. My God; under whom I also am as man; your God, between whom and you I am mediator.

The problem is that we're using a translation; we don't have a word that means 'hold on to' (Mary) not just 'touch' (Thomas)'

[JonathonofOhio]

Originally Posted by tabycat

The problem is that we're using a translation; we don't have a word that means 'hold on to' (Mary) not just 'touch' (Thomas)'

The problem isn't that there is no translation, the problem is you assuming I was citing any translation. I was merely attempting to clarify Jesus' use of the word 'touch' here, which carries multiple meanings and does not always mean 'physical interaction'.

When Jesus referred to her 'touching' him, he is not actually referring to the physical act of touching (as with Thomas), but in context he is referring to a spiritual touch. I likened it to holding on to, because she was holding on to her belief of him being a man, not seeing Him equal to God.

Here I found the full quote I referred to in my explanation, which I found before when I was researching this passage awhile back:

"He is not rightly touched, that is to say, in any other way He is not rightly believed on. But Mary might have still so believed as to account Him unequal with the Father, and this certainly is forbidden her by the words, "Touch me not;" that is, Believe not thus on me according to your present notions; let not your thoughts stretch outwards to what I have been made in your behalf, without passing beyond to that whereby you have yourself been made. For how could it be otherwise than carnally that she still believed on Him whom she was weeping over as a man? "For I am not yet ascended," He says, "to my Father:" there shall you touch me, when you believe me to be God, in no wise unequal with the Father. "But go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father." He says not, Our Father: in one sense, therefore, is He mine, in another sense, yours; by nature mine, by grace yours. "And my God, and your God." Nor did He say here, Our God: here, therefore, also is He in one sense mine, in another sense yours: my God; under whom I also am as man; your God, between whom and you I am mediator." - Augustine Tractate 121 (John 20:10-29) (newadvent.org)

I found a couple other interpretations of this particular passage among the writings of the Church Fathers but I don't recall who and where I found them. However, they are all similar in that they all agreed Mary didn't believe at that time Jesus was equal to the Father, and that is why he tells her she cannot touch him.