Human Dignity Through the Ages

[jenwha]

I don't know if this has ever bothered anyone else, but I have a very, very, very gentle soul and I can't stand any kind of human debasement, physical violence, etc. And the time we live in (I'm in USA) is extremely cognitive of a person's basic dignity. We go to clean hospitals, where they put a sheet around the bed, we are given every possible medication to not feel pain, etc, there are many more examples.

I have always been extremely horrified and bothered by what went on in the Middle Ages, and the Inquisitions, or anything around those time periods where people where tortured by racks and thumbscrews and ducked in water and on the Rack and Iron Maidens and burned at the stake, which at times were lauded events right out in the public square. Or even Christ's time,...crucifixion...

WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS WRONG WITH PEOPLE BACK THEN???? Did they not have any understanding on a human being's personal dignity? Why were people so different back then about what they did to people? How in the world could these things be allowed to be done? It's absolutely vile and disgusting.

I do not at all understand either the church's role in any of the Inquisitions and I am not learned about it, so I don't know how much of a role if any the Catholic Church had, and I don't want to start a whole mud slinging issue about that.

My main point is that I think torture, or debasement of any human being is the most evil disgusting thing ever, and I don't understand how people in times of Old could have possibly thought to do any of those things.

Any thoughts????? Does this bother anyone else????

[GEddie]

Originally Posted by jenwha

I don't know if this has ever bothered anyone else, but I have a very, very, very gentle soul and I can't stand any kind of human debasement, physical violence, etc. And the time we live in (I'm in USA) is extremely cognitive of a person's basic dignity. We go to clean hospitals, where they put a sheet around the bed, we are given every possible medication to not feel pain, etc, there are many more examples.

I have always been extremely horrified and bothered by what went on in the Middle Ages, and the Inquisitions, or anything around those time periods where people where tortured by racks and thumbscrews and ducked in water and on the Rack and Iron Maidens and burned at the stake, which at times were lauded events right out in the public square. Or even Christ's time,...crucifixion...

WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS WRONG WITH PEOPLE BACK THEN???? Did they not have any understanding on a human being's personal dignity? Why were people so different back then about what they did to people? How in the world could these things be allowed to be done? It's absolutely vile and disgusting.

I do not at all understand either the church's role in any of the Inquisitions and I am not learned about it, so I don't know how much of a role if any the Catholic Church had, and I don't want to start a whole mud slinging issue about that.

My main point is that I think torture, or debasement of any human being is the most evil disgusting thing ever, and I don't understand how people in times of Old could have possibly thought to do any of those things.

Any thoughts????? Does this bother anyone else????

We are just as violent as then; we just hide it better.

We no longer kill with swords in battle; we use mortars, grenades, aircraft, etc. The effect on human beings subjected to it is just as bad, but there is nothing nasty to see.

We as a society no longer hang or behead anybody; we tie them down and inject them with lethal drugs. The result is not as hideous visually, but death is still the ultimate loss of human dignity.

When our descendants will have abolished war and execution, will they consider us in as bad a light as we see the medieval period?

ICXC NIKA

[ccmnxc]

People will use many means to acheive their ends. As far as the Spanish Inquisition, they wanted to keep the Protestant Reformation out of Spain. They tortured people to ellicit responses and confessions, whether true or not. People basically shut off the part of the brain that relates with other humans to basically dehumanize the people they are torturing.

[JackVk]

Originally Posted by ccmnxc

People will use many means to acheive their ends. As far as the Spanish Inquisition, they wanted to keep the Protestant Reformation out of Spain. They tortured people to ellicit responses and confessions, whether true or not. People basically shut off the part of the brain that relates with other humans to basically dehumanize the people they are torturing.

While I do agree with you on people dehumanizing their victims, here's a skinny on the Spanish Inquisition.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/art...ition-revealed

[The_Scott]

Originally Posted by jenwha

I have always been extremely horrified and bothered by what went on in the Middle Ages, and the Inquisitions, or anything around those time periods where people where tortured by racks and thumbscrews and ducked in water and on the Rack and Iron Maidens and burned at the stake, which at times were lauded events right out in the public square. Or even Christ's time,...crucifixion...

I know this isn't part of your argument or topic, but I just want to point out a very small error here. The Iron Maiden was actually invented during the 19th century, and not during the Middle Ages as many think. And even then, it was probably never used on any human being - or even intended to be used. In short, it's a hoax.

One theory is that its history (that it was used in the Middle Ages) was totally a hoax. Another theory is that the construction of the device was a misrepresentation of the medieval "Cloak of Shame," which is a device made of wood (or metal lining) that would be placed on someone's waist and torso. It didn't have spikes, like the Iron Maiden, but it was used to humiliate people.

[Equites Christi]

Originally Posted by jenwha

I don't know if this has ever bothered anyone else, but I have a very, very, very gentle soul and I can't stand any kind of human debasement, physical violence, etc. And the time we live in (I'm in USA) is extremely cognitive of a person's basic dignity. We go to clean hospitals, where they put a sheet around the bed, we are given every possible medication to not feel pain, etc, there are many more examples.

I have always been extremely horrified and bothered by what went on in the Middle Ages, and the Inquisitions, or anything around those time periods where people where tortured by racks and thumbscrews and ducked in water and on the Rack and Iron Maidens and burned at the stake, which at times were lauded events right out in the public square. Or even Christ's time,...crucifixion...

WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS WRONG WITH PEOPLE BACK THEN???? Did they not have any understanding on a human being's personal dignity? Why were people so different back then about what they did to people? How in the world could these things be allowed to be done? It's absolutely vile and disgusting.

I do not at all understand either the church's role in any of the Inquisitions and I am not learned about it, so I don't know how much of a role if any the Catholic Church had, and I don't want to start a whole mud slinging issue about that.

My main point is that I think torture, or debasement of any human being is the most evil disgusting thing ever, and I don't understand how people in times of Old could have possibly thought to do any of those things.

Any thoughts????? Does this bother anyone else????

As a person who has long been fascinated by the question of how the peoples of history thought & behaved, one of the most important realizations I've had is that human nature does not change. People are raised to think different ways, and live amongst different social norms, but the innate tendencies of man are constant.

Like you, I am also very sensitive to seeing human dignity be violated. One time when I was young, a friend of mine was playing a violent video game and was killing civilians, and I reportedly started to tear up. Seeing scenes in movies where scores of people are obliterated in massive explosions like so much grass really bothers me.

It is true that the past was much more ugly in many ways. But our forefathers were no uglier than we are. We still rape, we still steal, we still kill, we still lie and manipulate.

What is worse; that many were burned at the stake for being heretics, or that millions have been killed in the womb for being inconvenient? We have found ways to make murder sterile and mess-less; our fathers' violence was more honest.

Fellow gentle soul, do not be fooled by America. True, it would give you anesthetic, but it would just as quickly pull the plug on you.

[jenwha]

[

QUOTE=The_Scott;9630747]I know this isn't part of your argument or topic, but I just want to point out a very small error here. The Iron Maiden was actually invented during the 19th century, and not during the Middle Ages as many think. And even then, it was probably never used on any human being - or even intended to be used. In short, it's a hoax.

One theory is that its history (that it was used in the Middle Ages) was totally a hoax. Another theory is that the construction of the device was a misrepresentation of the medieval "Cloak of Shame," which is a device made of wood (or metal lining) that would be placed on someone's waist and torso. It didn't have spikes, like the Iron Maiden, but it was used to humiliate people.

And that's fine. Regardless of the time period (again I am fuzzy about the history) I do get that people still rob, rape, hurt, destroy,etc. But even though people still do evil today, the stuff I have read about in the past is just beyond limits. It seems to be much much worse. It bothers me so much.

[The_Scott]

Originally Posted by jenwha

And that's fine. Regardless of the time period (again I am fuzzy about the history) I do get that people still rob, rape, hurt, destroy,etc. But even though people still do evil today, the stuff I have read about in the past is just beyond limits. It seems to be much much worse. It bothers me so much.

Oh, I completely understand, and I agree. You must also remember, in many cases, torture and painful execution was used as a deterrent - as in, for example, "don't steal, or you'll have your hands cut off." It wasn't necessarily used to fulfill some desire to do evil for personal pleasure (although I'm sure some people enjoyed it, just as some people would enjoy torturing people today), but a misguided view of societal law and order.

[PJD1987]

Originally Posted by jenwha

I do not at all understand either the church's role in any of the Inquisitions and I am not learned about it, so I don't know how much of a role if any the Catholic Church had, and I don't want to start a whole mud slinging issue about that.

First of all, I highly reccommend watching two videos (I apologize I cannot link them now, but I will should anyone be interested). They are on the Inquisition and the Crusades, and they are by Michael Voris on ChurchMilitant.TV, available free, you just have to register a username/pw. In any case, he gives a vigorous defense of the Church during the period of the Inquisitions. A brief outline:

The Inquisitions were set up to stop random acts of violence against heretics by unlearned lay people. They afforded more rights to the accused than any other state institution in the world. Most of the accused were either acquitted or given penalties much less severe than death. Of those accused, only 2% were put to death. During the Spanish Inquisition, 12% were put to death, and this had much more to do with Spanish internal politics, and the sample size is much smaller so the number jumps 10%. I won't get into the specifics, because Mr. Voris does an excellent job, much better than I, at explaining these things. I highly recommend the video.

This is a pretty standard anti-Catholic argument. Most people who throw out the words "Inquisition" and "Crusades" and "Indulgences" and the like, quite frankly don't even know what they are talking about. They simply parrot what they've heard from others with no real knowledge of the facts of independent research. It is sad that so many have fallen victim to, (to borrow a phrase from St. Peter) cleverly devised myths, about the true history of the Church. Some of the crimes of the past are legitimate, but some are not. Regardless, it is no reason to forsake the Truth which is taught and held within Holy Mother Church. Yes, it is disheartening sometimes when bombarded with these attacks, when we realize just how fragile and susceptible to temptation and sin we are, even those we hold in esteem. But the Church is the Rock of our faith, the Truth of Jesus Christ. Men will always let us down, but Christ will not. It is important to distinguish between the two and not muddle the issue.

God bless.

-Paul

[chipeto]

Originally Posted by jenwha

[

And that's fine. Regardless of the time period (again I am fuzzy about the history) I do get that people still rob, rape, hurt, destroy,etc. But even though people still do evil today, the stuff I have read about in the past is just beyond limits. It seems to be much much worse. It bothers me so much.

It is really worse than what has been done in the last century? I would argue that it isn't. Sometimes it is difficult to get a clear view of something when we are very close to it. Also, much of how people conceive of the middle ages is caricature, and places an unwarranted emphasis on the negatives.

Getting to Know the Middle Ages