Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

[benjammin]

Originally Posted by Gaelic Bard

I think though, Steve, that capitalism lends itself better to what you described above. Private entities, when they're free to pursue philanthropic ventures without government interference, will handle these responsibilities. Catholic Services was there prior to social security. Yet look what hapoens when government gets involved? Ala Catholic agencies being forced by the government to adopt to homosexuals in MA...so they close down.

This is so true. However, we have to be careful that private individuals actually give. As human beings we are selfish, and anymore, I get the feeling a lot of rich people think of the poor as lazy bums who don't deserve any charity. Of course, the government shouldn't force people to give or take care of others either. we need to do it out of our own wills

[Gaelic Bard]

Originally Posted by benjammin

This is so true. However, we have to be careful that private individuals actually give. As human beings we are selfish, and anymore, I get the feeling a lot of rich people think of the poor as lazy bums who don't deserve any charity. Of course, the government shouldn't force people to give or take care of others either. we need to do it out of our own wills

I agree, ben. It's the gospel that the church uses to produce those fruits.

[silentfactor80]

I don't think Protestantism is defacto liberalism but it does contribute to it. I think Protestants overall have a profound dislike for the influence the RCC has as a result of its organization. I tend to think Protestants adopted birth control and recently gay marriage because they want the membership espoused by the RCC. Instead of rally around Christianity they have chased after false gods to scoop up the people who feel spiritual but reject the Church's teaching on birth control and gay marriage.

[Gaelic Bard]

Originally Posted by silentfactor80

I don't think Protestantism is defacto liberalism but it does contribute to it. I think Protestants overall have a profound dislike for the influence the RCC has as a result of its organization. I tend to think Protestants adopted birth control and recently gay marriage because they want the membership espoused by the RCC. Instead of rally around Christianity they have chased after false gods to scoop up the people who feel spiritual but reject the Church's teaching on birth control and gay marriage.

silent..not factually accurate. The last Gallup polls show 51% of Catholics support gay marriage laws. 59% of Protestants oppose it.

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by Gaelic Bard

I think though, Steve, that capitalism lends itself better to what you described above. Private entities, when they're free to pursue philanthropic ventures without government interference, will handle these responsibilities. Catholic Services was there prior to social security. Yet look what hapoens when government gets involved? Ala Catholic agencies being forced by the government to adopt to homosexuals in MA...so they close down.

I agree completely. Well said.

[Bob Crowley]

Originally Posted by benjammin

What I mean by this is that because of Luther and other reformers challenging the church, he put the focus on God and the individual, not the individual as a part of the church community. Anyway, this led the way to individuals not only challenging the church but challenging all authority and even God itself, leading to the enlightenment in the 17th and 18th centuries where many thinkers (including a few of our founding fathers) were deists.
Because of these ideas, there was more emphasis on individual liberty and freedom, but not the right kind of freedom. More of the kind of freedom where "I can do whatever I want and no one can stop me). This lack of respect for God, as well as desire for libertinism led to where we are today. While protestantism in some respects has remained strong, I feel that because of it people feel free to challenge all authority and eventually it leads to where people have no God and all they care about is the kind of freedom that satisfies desires of the flesh, not the true freedom found in God.

So could it be true that Protestantism, while certainly not part of Liberalism, has led to liberalism and the decline of our society or am I way out there?

While Protestantism has led to a greater growth in democracy, I don't think you can lay the blame for decadence at its door.

The rich have always been "liberal", simply because they've had the time and the money to indulge themselves. While the middle and working classes generally had fairly strong morals, this was not the case with the rich. When industrialisation was just getting under way, the poor working classes were exploited and didn't have the time or the means to indulge in depravity, although there was depravity in the poorest quarters.

These days machines do much of the work, thus freeing up much of the western middle and working classes, who can now live quite comfortably.

Most Protestant churches have preached a fairly strict moral code, and in some areas, they exceed the Catholic. Some of them are still anti-alcohol, anti-gambling, and certainly anti-fornication.

Secondly in the 20th century we saw a World War I where both sides claimed the imprimatur of the Christian God (and Moslem Allah in the case of Turkey), while they both used poisonous gas, blew each other to smithereens, and machine gunned an entire generation of young men.

We then saw an almost religionless World War II, with millions being done to death in concentration camps, and then the Cold War with Russia spreading many of her revolutionary ideas around the world.

I have no problem with the contraceptive pill for married couples just as recommended for use by married couples by two committees set up and / or expanded by two Popes, but the reality is that it's made sexual immorality much more widespread. However I don't see any difference between that and personal misuse of a weapon to kill innocent people - the moroal responsibility lies with the user.

Sure, Protestantism has led to the development of greater democracy, most powerfully expressed in the sometimes over-zealous and occasionally ridiculous US experiment. But I think its a bit much to blame modern depravity and moral standards on the Reformation. If you're going to blame Protestantism, how do you account for the drug wars in Catholic Mexico? Or the high murder rate in Catholic Venezuela? Or Mussolini's
Fascist Italy? Or Catholic Paris' reputation for easy virtue in the lead up to the First World War?

I'd put several other factors at work - machinery and super industrialisation to begin with, along with the living standards they have created. Separation of God and state as another. Twol world wars and disillusionment with religion in fhe face of the result. The contraceptive pill for sexual immorality. Left wing politicians imbued with some of the less salubrious teachings of the former USSR eg. abortion on demand, allied with extreme feminism.

Finally, two western generations which haven't suffered much. But I way I see things, that might be about to change.

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by Gaelic Bard

silent..not factually accurate. The last Gallup polls show 51% of Catholics support gay marriage laws. 59% of Protestants oppose it.

Yeah, some people think they were born Catholic, yet they haven't seen the inside of a Church since their infant Baptism and won't until they get married and then when they die. A wise old priest once told me that he felt like his job description was "hatch 'em, match 'em and dispatch 'em". These folks still identify themselves as "Catholic", however.

My point is that those numbers would certainly not hold up in my parish (I know pretty much everyone, its a small parish), nor really in any parish of which I'm aware. If its even close, however, it shows the greate need for evangelization and catechesis within our Church. The Catholic vote was huge for Obama. Unbelievable to me.

[Gaelic Bard]

Originally Posted by SteveVH

Yeah, some people think they were born Catholic, yet they haven't seen the inside of a Church since their infant Baptism and won't until they get married and then when they die. A wise old priest once told me that he felt like his job description was "hatch 'em, match 'em and dispatch 'em". These folks still identify themselves as "Catholic", however.

My point is that those numbers would certainly not hold up in my parish (I know pretty much everyone, its a small parish), nor really in any parish of which I'm aware. If its even close, however, it shows the greate need for evangelization and catechesis within our Church. The Catholic vote was huge for Obama. Unbelievable to me.

Yes indeed. No one is more articulate on sexual and life issues than Pope Benedict. His last address on homosexuality several weeks ago was brilliant.

I just don't get in these threads why some insist on turning everything into a Protestant vs. Catholic argument. It's just silly. Yes there are liberal Protestant churches. In the US they are miniscule compared to evangelicals. The Southern Baptist convention alone outnumbers 3 liberal denominations combined.

[mlz]

Originally Posted by tweetiebird

I had to do some soul searching about Luther.

I am a craddle catholic, but I went to public highschool.

So I grew up with the perception of Luther the emancipator.

Later in life I had to take a close look at Luther and exactly what he accomplished.

Now I see Luther through the eyes of a catholic.

Once again I had the misconception all of protestant denominations come from Luther.


But I now know to truly study Luther only consider the Lutheran denomination. Is the

Lutheran denomination liberal? I think it is conservative on the modern issues of the day.

The lutheran denomination is not liberal, I say that even though I am a staunch catholic.

But like the poster stated, some people may have taken his ideas and other movements formed.

Many sadly in the ELCA have been led into a very secular liberalism especially by many in leadership, which is why I started searching... eventually knowing I needed to be Catholic!

mlz

[silentfactor80]

Originally Posted by Gaelic Bard

silent..not factually accurate. The last Gallup polls show 51% of Catholics support gay marriage laws. 59% of Protestants oppose it.

The Episcopalians at the National Cathedral just ok'd it. Watch people flock to them. I suppose I should have been a little clearer about what Protestants I meant. Also, black people supported Obama even after Baptist ministers got could shouldered by Obama. Any vote for a pro-gay marriage candidate is in fact supporting it. Your personal opinion isn't a vote.