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  #76  
Old Jun 22, '12, 9:42 pm
ThePastafarian ThePastafarian is offline
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Join Date: June 20, 2012
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Default Re: Masturbation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkInOregon View Post
Is is so hard to understand that your bias clouds your view? You are exposing your child to things you believe are true--whether or not they actually are. You do that at an appropriate level--in math and reading and whatever else you think is good or true--maybe evolution. Maybe that there is no God. I don't really know. That's your business not mine. We are doing nothing different.

Teaching our children that we were created by God is not anymore dangerous than telling them they evolved from nothing. By the way being created by God does not preclude evolution just the idea that the world popped into existence out of nothing (and you cannot prove that it did).

Teaching our children that there is such a thing as right and wrong and that there is such a thing as morality is not dangerous. To teach your children that they get to pick and choose what is right and wrong and what is moral--is dangerous--and takes society down a path we don't want to go down--again I suggest you look at what B4U-ACT is advocating--that's where this is all is leading--and as a parent I would hope you find that disturbing. When our rights come from the government and not from God--then those rights can be taken away--and you see that in some societies.

If my children grow up to practice their faith and live that faith by attending Mass every Sunday, trying to live the teaching of God as revealed to the Church by trying not to commit sin, going to confession, and by living the faith in serving the poor in soup kitchens, volunteering at homeless shelters, visiting the sick and those in prision, by living a chaste life if they are not married and by being faithful in marriage--how have they harmed you or society? How have they been a danger to you?

You say with no bias--but your bias has already been taught. By not teaching your child about religion--when you have taught him everything else--you have said to him I think these things are false and now after teaching him that you're going to say but here are their beliefs if you're interested..... You've already taught him that these things aren't important or true in your mind and thats what he'll believe. You are guilty of the same "crime" that you accuse us off in your high and mighty tone--why is that so hard to understand?

As parents we teach our children what is true at a level that is appropriate to their understanding. We teach them how to think critically and we expose them to other ideas as they grow and can absorb them. No parent can give a child faith--ultimately the child has to do the study and make it their own or chose to leave it--which many do when they are young and naive and wrapped up in self. Today too many parents fail to teach their children anything other than if it feels good do it--take a look at the direction western society is going.

I do wish you well in your parenting.

Peace,
Mark
If you're children grow to think it's ok to sacrifice themselves in the name of someone who may or may not exist, there is a serious problem. As I said, I wouldn't teach religion because it's one of the few subjects that alter the way people view the world. As the expression goes: Friends who want to stay friends don't discuss religion or politics. Notice the lack of the word clothing, math or reading. It's dangerous in the soft puddy that is a child's brain. You mold it, and if you tell him to he better be ready to sacrifice himself in the name of god, you better believe he's going to do it.
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  #77  
Old Jun 24, '12, 6:12 am
epan's Avatar
epan epan is offline
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Join Date: May 29, 2012
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Religion: Baptized in CC, Discerning
Default Re: Masturbation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePastafarian View Post
If you're children grow to think it's ok to sacrifice themselves in the name of someone who may or may not exist, there is a serious problem. As I said, I wouldn't teach religion because it's one of the few subjects that alter the way people view the world. As the expression goes: Friends who want to stay friends don't discuss religion or politics. Notice the lack of the word clothing, math or reading. It's dangerous in the soft puddy that is a child's brain. You mold it, and if you tell him to he better be ready to sacrifice himself in the name of god, you better believe he's going to do it.
This is part of why some Protestant denominations wait until a person is an adult, and able to provide consent, before baptism. An infant is unable to provide consent to anything. A child is gullible, and unable to make informed decisions. My family was brought up differently. Baptism into the Catholic Church was given, and catechism at an early age. Once critical thinking was mature enough, choices were allowed.
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  #78  
Old Jun 24, '12, 6:18 am
epan's Avatar
epan epan is offline
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Join Date: May 29, 2012
Posts: 3,354
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Default Re: Masturbation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkInOregon View Post
Is is so hard to understand that your bias clouds your view? You are exposing your child to things you believe are true--whether or not they actually are. You do that at an appropriate level--in math and reading and whatever else you think is good or true--maybe evolution. Maybe that there is no God. I don't really know. That's your business not mine. We are doing nothing different.

Teaching our children that we were created by God is not anymore dangerous than telling them they evolved from nothing. By the way being created by God does not preclude evolution just the idea that the world popped into existence out of nothing (and you cannot prove that it did).

Teaching our children that there is such a thing as right and wrong and that there is such a thing as morality is not dangerous. To teach your children that they get to pick and choose what is right and wrong and what is moral--is dangerous--and takes society down a path we don't want to go down--again I suggest you look at what B4U-ACT is advocating--that's where this is all is leading--and as a parent I would hope you find that disturbing. When our rights come from the government and not from God--then those rights can be taken away--and you see that in some societies.

If my children grow up to practice their faith and live that faith by attending Mass every Sunday, trying to live the teaching of God as revealed to the Church by trying not to commit sin, going to confession, and by living the faith in serving the poor in soup kitchens, volunteering at homeless shelters, visiting the sick and those in prision, by living a chaste life if they are not married and by being faithful in marriage--how have they harmed you or society? How have they been a danger to you?

You say with no bias--but your bias has already been taught. By not teaching your child about religion--when you have taught him everything else--you have said to him I think these things are false and now after teaching him that you're going to say but here are their beliefs if you're interested..... You've already taught him that these things aren't important or true in your mind and thats what he'll believe. You are guilty of the same "crime" that you accuse us off in your high and mighty tone--why is that so hard to understand?

As parents we teach our children what is true at a level that is appropriate to their understanding. We teach them how to think critically and we expose them to other ideas as they grow and can absorb them. No parent can give a child faith--ultimately the child has to do the study and make it their own or chose to leave it--which many do when they are young and naive and wrapped up in self. Today too many parents fail to teach their children anything other than if it feels good do it--take a look at the direction western society is going.

I do wish you well in your parenting.

Peace,
Mark
I looked at b4u-act. It is an organization promoting help by mental health professionals for pedarasts. Not a bad idea, and far better than how some have handled the problem.

Why do you bring that up in the context of this discussion?
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  #79  
Old Jun 24, '12, 7:57 am
sw85 sw85 is online now
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Join Date: July 22, 2010
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Religion: Baptized and confirmed Easter Vigil, 2012
Default Re: Masturbation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePastafarian View Post
Is it so hard to understand that exposing children to something far beyond their level is dangerous? I bet most of the people here have been a part of their religion of birth, including the ones who would die for it. As I said, you'll believe absolutely anything your parents say as a child, no matter how ridiculous.
I made the decision to become a Catholic about 9-10 months ago after years of careful study and reflection. I had never set foot in a church of any sort until about two years prior to that (and then only because my girlfriend dragged me to one grudgingly). I was raised in a house full of new age hippie types.

I'm aware that this is a popular meme among atheists, "You're just spouting what your parents tell you!" But can you not see how ludicrously self-serving it is? You're basically saying everyone's an idiot except for you, which is pretty much the definition of subclinical narcissism. And it can just as easily be said about you that you're mindlessly parroting the utilitarian zeitgeist to justify your masturbatory habit.

But notice I'm not saying that, i.e., that you must be wrong because you're not very well read on these issues and because you're prejudiced by your environment. I'm saying you're wrong because you are in fact wrong, and then explaining why. You, your background, your family, etc. have nothing to do with it, all your efforts to psychologize our respective positions notwithstanding. Your ideas have everything to do with it.

Here's something you said in the OP:

Quote:
Now, I invite any one of you to come and tell me why I'm wrong
Well, that's what I'm doing. And your response is "You're just brainwashed!" which, at least in my case, is obviously not even true. No one ever, at any point, told me to be a Catholic. I was convinced of its truths because I did my homework on it and could see no reason to believe it was false.

Again, as I've been saying for some time now, you guys don't get to claim everyone but you is ignorant and brainwashed when you don't even know what we believe or why. For Heaven's sake, the entire reason you came here was because you heard a rumor about Church teachings second-hand and had to Google it to confirm its verity. Now you're an expert on it? Ordinarily, when confronted with an opposing viewpoint, the prudent thing to do is familiarize yourself with it, understand what people believe and why they believe it. You've skipped over that step entirely, which says a lot more about you than it does about Catholicism.

You said earlier this discussion was pointless. You're right, but it's pointless because of your obstinate refusal (or is it constitutional inability?) to think outside the extraordinarily narrow confines of your consequentialist worldview. Until you do that, you're never going to get beyond this "You're a poopy head!!!!! > " kind of argument you've been making so far. I've posted some references on the third page to fuller treatments of the Catholic worldview and natural law theory:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw85 View Post
-- Edward Feser's Aquinas (chapter 5) or The Last Superstition (chapter 4, I think).

-- An article written by Feser, available online for free here, called "Natural Law, Natural Rights, and Private Property."

-- Chapter 3 of Natural Moral Law in Contemporary Society, titled "The Metaphysical Foundations of Natural Law." This is a little more scholarly than Feser's article above but also a little more thorough. You can find this for free online here.
Read them. Then come back. Then we can dialogue. But, again, you don't get to claim dialogue is fruitless and that everyone's an idiot but you when you pigheadedly refuse to engage what we actually believe and instead just feel content to call us names.
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