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  #106  
Old Jun 24, '12, 8:10 am
Elizabeth502 Elizabeth502 is offline
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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Originally Posted by Seeker1961 View Post
wow...you share that compassion with everyone you encounter or do you save that for the "real" sinners?

I love the internet, you never really have to work to prove a point because someone will always come along and prove it for you.
Yeah, ya know, I love the internet, too, because it reveals who can really read vs. who filters with preferences what is in front of them.

I have tremendous compassion equally for anyone who suffers from a sense of isolation. But it is not up to any individual to flatter himself or herself that private isolation -- which is actually a shared existential experience -- is unique to a particular condition. It isn't. And further, a condition which is agony to one person is a difficulty to the next. What might be merely difficult for you or for me to resist might be a Herculean effort for someone else. Our psyches are borders between each other, regardless of our imaginations. I deal with those with mental illness and with all kinds of disabilities on a regular basis, and have known all kinds of people with addictive attractions. To assume that same-sex attraction is necessarily more isolating than other forbidden attractions is not to understand the impenetrability of the human psyche.

As to the partnering aspect of the attraction, again there is the presumption that somehow those who are heterosexual and long for a mate have "less" suffering than the homosexual, and that those living a life of celibacy have "less" deprivation than those who don't. Even when a life is consecrated through celibacy, the human longing remains, and produces pain, and is permanent.

Have a nice day.
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  #107  
Old Jun 24, '12, 8:21 am
Elizabeth502 Elizabeth502 is offline
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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Originally Posted by Dakota Roberts View Post
She is very sincere, but she can't always understand other people's perspective, the SSA affected person has quite a gulf between himself and everyone else.
Asked and answered, Dakota. I can understand isolation. I deny that the gulf between self and others is unique to homosexuals, because I see it in many other situations, and I will suggest that anyone who assumes that same-sex-attraction is "worse" or "more painful" than other kinds of isolation has not lived not long enough, has not opened himself to other kinds of gulfs between individuals, or (possibly) is self-absorbed.

Many kinds of isolation are unique to that particular phenomenon. That is not the same thing as saying that that particular condition is "more" painful or "more" isolating or creates a "greater" gulf than other situations of suffering, longing, unrequited desire, permanent exclusion, etc. You don't know that. And you will never know that, until possibly Heaven.

We all tend to experience or perceive our own personal sufferings as exquisitely unique, but all suffering is subjective, not objective. There is no objective way to "measure" one person's permanent sense of deprivation vs. another's, because all kinds of factors are involved in such a "measurement." And the more we are focused on our individual suffering, the more we suffer. That is one of the dynamics of suffering. The more we are able to creatively be transformed by that suffering, the less that suffering dominates our consciousness, and the less it leads us to assume that "others just don't understand us."
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  #108  
Old Jun 24, '12, 8:54 pm
karoleck karoleck is offline
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Smile Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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Originally Posted by Elizabeth502 View Post
Asked and answered, Dakota. I can understand isolation. I deny that the gulf between self and others is unique to homosexuals, because I see it in many other situations, and I will suggest that anyone who assumes that same-sex-attraction is "worse" or "more painful" than other kinds of isolation has not lived not long enough, has not opened himself to other kinds of gulfs between individuals, or (possibly) is self-absorbed.

Many kinds of isolation are unique to that particular phenomenon. That is not the same thing as saying that that particular condition is "more" painful or "more" isolating or creates a "greater" gulf than other situations of suffering, longing, unrequited desire, permanent exclusion, etc. You don't know that. And you will never know that, until possibly Heaven.

We all tend to experience or perceive our own personal sufferings as exquisitely unique, but all suffering is subjective, not objective. There is no objective way to "measure" one person's permanent sense of deprivation vs. another's, because all kinds of factors are involved in such a "measurement." And the more we are focused on our individual suffering, the more we suffer. That is one of the dynamics of suffering. The more we are able to creatively be transformed by that suffering, the less that suffering dominates our consciousness, and the less it leads us to assume that "others just don't understand us."
This posting and your one before this has shown that you understand how the "militant homosexual lobby " uses the "poor me/us" line to get what they want.I remember reading a wonderful line from a Japanese saying "We should all be kind to one another,because we are all lonely".

I just received an email from a Senator called Ron Boswell and his team kindly attached the speech that he gave to parliament ,putting in his position why a private members'bill should not be passed that calls for same sex 'marriage.You will notice that he has used all rational reasoning to put his case .

http://www.ronboswell.com/speeches/3...e-20-june-2012
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  #109  
Old Jun 25, '12, 6:05 am
fix fix is offline
 
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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Originally Posted by ASimon View Post
Silly, evasive word games don't let you off the hook, I'm afraid. But I understand, given what you'd be otherwise forced to concede, that you have no choice but to play them.
No evasion, just pointing out silly logic.
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  #110  
Old Jun 25, '12, 6:09 am
fix fix is offline
 
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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And if you really put yourself in the shoes of those condemned you might understand why they feel that way.
Who has condemned any person here?

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I wasn't convinced to return to the Church by being called a threat to society, disordered or unnatural. I wasn't led back to the Church by wagging fingers telling me how sinful I was. I was loved back by good people who wanted me to know Jesus.
This is a moral theology forum. We discuss moral theology. Instead of looking to be offended at each turn, why not defend Church teaching. The posts here are not about individulas, they are about societal changes that are really bad.

Quote:
If anyone here is really serious about "loving the sinner" then wouldn't it be a good idea to place yourself in that other person's shoes to find out how to help them change their life?
This is not about pastoral care of individual persons. It is about defending what the Church teaches. The problem is any defense is immediately attacked as lacking charity,
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  #111  
Old Jun 25, '12, 6:47 am
Dakota Roberts Dakota Roberts is offline
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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Originally Posted by Elizabeth502 View Post
Asked and answered, Dakota. I can understand isolation. I deny that the gulf between self and others is unique to homosexuals, because I see it in many other situations, and I will suggest that anyone who assumes that same-sex-attraction is "worse" or "more painful" than other kinds of isolation has not lived not long enough, has not opened himself to other kinds of gulfs between individuals, or (possibly) is self-absorbed.

Many kinds of isolation are unique to that particular phenomenon. That is not the same thing as saying that that particular condition is "more" painful or "more" isolating or creates a "greater" gulf than other situations of suffering, longing, unrequited desire, permanent exclusion, etc. You don't know that. And you will never know that, until possibly Heaven.

We all tend to experience or perceive our own personal sufferings as exquisitely unique, but all suffering is subjective, not objective. There is no objective way to "measure" one person's permanent sense of deprivation vs. another's, because all kinds of factors are involved in such a "measurement." And the more we are focused on our individual suffering, the more we suffer. That is one of the dynamics of suffering. The more we are able to creatively be transformed by that suffering, the less that suffering dominates our consciousness, and the less it leads us to assume that "others just don't understand us."
There's more than one kind of profound "otherness" and I'm sure there are conditions that are much worse, but telling a quadriplegic to not ever complain because there are people worse off is going to draw ire even though it's true (they could be blind and deaf too). Ever tried running from your shadow? Trying to forget something that is always there at most interpersonal interaction, whether it's "Am I being extra nice to him because I like him?" or "She's perfect, why can't I like her?"
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  #112  
Old Jun 25, '12, 11:20 pm
karoleck karoleck is offline
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Smile Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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Originally Posted by fix View Post
Who has condemned any person here?



This is a moral theology forum. We discuss moral theology. Instead of looking to be offended at each turn, why not defend Church teaching. The posts here are not about individulas, they are about societal changes that are really bad.



This is not about pastoral care of individual persons. It is about defending what the Church teaches. The problem is any defense is immediately attacked as lacking charity,


You have observed well here, the poster ELIZABETH only spoke a truth and instead of giving a thanks to her for doing an act of charity,she is judged as lacking charity! I always though that to "refute error" is the highest charitable action a person can do.Jesus identified Himself as The Way,The Truth and The Light.
"uncharitable,lack of compassion,judgemental' are words that the "gay rights miltant lobby" use to try to silence a christian reponse, to" the greatest moral issue of our times"(quote from The Holy Father,Pope Benedict.)

Now getting back to the thrust of this topic,I think that as christian ,catholic believers, we see clearly with the eyes of The Church.Hence our conciences are informed on what the Church teaches in regard to the acting out of a same sex attraction union.One of the effects of compromising in sin, is that our minds are not clear and our wills are weaker.The closer a person comes to a union with Christ,they "put on the mind of Christ" as St.Paul puts it.A person who is living "in a state of grace" has a greater perception of evil and what the consequences an evil act can have, not only on a person but also on society.

It is like asking "why are some doctors threatened more by people smoking than with a broken foot?"--well the answer is that they are better informed or that they specialize in this area and it is a life threat.or again "Why are some police threatened more by speeding or drunken drivers as against jay walkers?" I think that these answers are just so obvious to any thinking person.So why is it not so obvious that the threat of the "militant homsexual lobby" to push for same sex "marriage" is like a red flag to a bull for Catholics & our separated christian believers?(a life threat to our society)

Last edited by karoleck; Jun 25, '12 at 11:33 pm.
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  #113  
Old Jun 26, '12, 5:06 am
Seeker1961 Seeker1961 is offline
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

FTR-I did not ever say that my situation was worse than anyone else's. My point-which was completely missed in order to put me in the correct little box-was that the first step in trying to reach the homosexual sinner that everyone claims to care so much about is to understand their perspective. I would say that about trying to reach anyone outside the church but since the topic of this thread was homosexuality that was the concept I discussed.

In your rush to be labeled the strongest defender of Church teaching, do you notice the people who need to be led to the Church all around you? Do you really see them as people like you or are they the ones you point to and say "see God? I'm doing really good! I'm not doing any of THOSE things!!"

The ONLY way that any sinful behavior is going to stop is by that person being led to Jesus. Only HIS grace and the frequent reception of the Eucharist will bring about the kind of changed life that wouldn't even think of engaging in behavior that was not pleasing to Him. Those of us who were fortunate enough to have someone actually lead us to Jesus and out of our old lives know this. And it doesn't matter what that "old life" was, none is better or worse than the other. However, reaching people in different circumstances does require that we who have been saved understand their situation and have the compassion to empathize with them.
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  #114  
Old Jun 26, '12, 1:59 pm
Sammm Sammm is offline
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

"The thing that so many non-religious and pro-gay people do not understand is that by praising homosexuality as perfectly ok, you are attacking the church. It is no longer your own personal lives when you are attacking our Church. At best, they're saying the church is worthless. At worst, they call the church evil. "


So are you saying that anyone who disagrees with you or does not believe in the teachigns of the Catholic Church is attacking you and hates you? Surely you don't hate Jehovah's Witnesses because you think their beliefs are not correct. Surely you don't think that when you get a blood transfusion and promote donating blood that you are attacking Jehovahs Witnesses because you are saying it is a good thing to do while they think it is a mortal sin.

One thing that has really surprised me since lurking on this forum is how hostile some Catholics here are to anyone who thinks differently than them. They think the only reason anyone would ever disagree with a Catholic is because they hate Catholics, hate the Church, and are selfish and don't care about hurting Catholic's feelings.

I don't think the Catholic Church is true. I don't believe in your religion. I'm not saying that makes it worthless. Religion is very important to people and Catholics do a huge amount of good works throughout the world. But I do not think you are the true religion and I do not believe in your dogma. It's not because I hate you. I just don't think you're right.

I don't think you guys realize how hateful and prejudiced many of you are coming across, because to me, many posts here seem extremely hateful, particularly the first post in this thread, because the only reason these posters seem to have for why someone doesn't think exactly like you is that they are hateful and selfish and are out to get you and make you feel bad.

Not agreeing with someone does not mean you hate them and are attacking you personally. For instance, I often vote differently from my friends and family. I may be campaigning for one person, and they campaigning for a rival. Or I may work passionately to get a new law passed why they work passionately on preventing it from geting passed. This doesn't mean we hate eachother. It just means we disagree on the subject at hand.

I firmly believe homosexuality is not wrong. I am not gay but I am a young person and I grew up in a time and place where homosexuality was just mostly accepted. Even most churches where I live celebrate Pride Week and display gay flags at that time. I knew kids with two moms or two dads, I knew people who came out as gay later in life. Their lives seem perfectly fine to me and little different from my own. I also don't see how homosexuals are "stealing" marriage because stealing means someone has taken something from you. My parents (who are heterosexual and big supporters of the gay rights movement) didn't have to get divorced when gay marriage was legalized. In fact, there was no change to their relationship what so ever. They were just as happy and just as married. So obviously no one stole anything from them.

From what I can tell, you guys want me to lie and say that I think homosexuality is wrong, and if I don't lie, then I'm committing a hate crime against you. Well, I try not to lie. I have looked in my conscience and I think you are wrong.

I understand that while other civil rights movements have taken hundreds of years of action to may any headway, the gay rights movement has moved very, very quickly. In 30 years they've completely changed the cultural landscape. While I think this is great, it just wouldn't be rational to expect everyone to immediately adjust to such radical changes. I do wish there weren't so many gay rights advocates who understood that, that its not reasonable to expect everyone to just instantly change their beliefs when typically that kind of change happens in slow increments over a long length of time. So I don't just automatically think "oh if you are against gay marriage, you are a hateful bigot." However, a lot of the posts on this forum do come across as very hateful - NOT because they are against gay marriage, but because of the way they argue against it and the way in which they describe people who disagree with them.

I will not lie for your benefit. It is not because I hate you or because I don't care about you or other people. It's because I think you are wrong and I am not willing to lie about that fact. That's really all there is to it.

Last edited by Sammm; Jun 26, '12 at 2:16 pm.
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  #115  
Old Jun 26, '12, 2:18 pm
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SwizzleStick SwizzleStick is offline
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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Originally Posted by Sammm View Post
"The thing that so many non-religious and pro-gay people do not understand is that by praising homosexuality as perfectly ok, you are attacking the church. It is no longer your own personal lives when you are attacking our Church. At best, they're saying the church is worthless. At worst, they call the church evil. "


So are you saying that anyone who disagrees with you or does not believe in the teachigns of the Catholic Church is attacking you and hates you? Surely you don't hate Jehovah's Witnesses because you think their beliefs are not correct. Surely you don't think that when you get a blood transfusion and promote donating blood that you are attacking Jehovahs Witnesses because you are saying it is a good thing to do while they think it is a mortal sin.

One thing that has really surprised me since lurking on this forum is how hostile some Catholics here are to anyone who thinks differently than them. They think the only reason anyone would ever disagree with a Catholic is because they hate Catholics, hate the Church, and are selfish and don't care about hurting Catholic's feelings.

I don't think the Catholic Church is true. I don't believe in your religion. I'm not saying that makes it worthless. Religion is very important to people and Catholics do a huge amount of good works throughout the world. But I do not think you are the true religion and I do not believe in your dogma. It's not because I hate you. I just don't think you're right.

I don't think you guys realize how hateful and prejudiced many of you are coming across, because to me, many posts here seem extremely hateful, particularly the first post in this thread, because the only reason these posters seem to have for why someone doesn't think exactly like you is that they are hateful and selfish and are out to get you and make you feel bad.

Not agreeing with someone does not mean you hate them and are attacking you personally. For instance, I often vote differently from my friends and family. I may be campaigning for one person, and they campaigning for a rival. Or I may work passionately to get a new law passed why they work passionately on preventing it from geting passed. This doesn't mean we hate eachother. It just means we disagree on the subject at hand.

I firmly believe homosexuality is not wrong. I am not gay but I am a young person and I grew up in a time and place where homosexuality was just mostly accepted. Even most churches where I live celebrate Pride Week and display gay flags at that time. I knew kids with two moms or two dads, I knew people who came out as gay later in life. Their lives seem perfectly fine to me and little different from my own. I also don't see how homosexuals are "stealing" marriage because stealing means someone has taken something from you. My parents (who are heterosexual and big supporters of the gay rights movement) didn't have to get divorced when gay marriage was legalized. In fact, there was no change to their relationship what so ever. They were just as happy and just as married. So obviously no one stole anything from them.

From what I can tell, you guys want me to lie and say that I think homosexuality is wrong, and if I don't lie, then I'm committing a hate crime against you. Well, I try not to lie. I have looked in my conscience and I think you are wrong.

I understand that while other civil rights movements have taken hundreds of years of action to may any headway, the gay rights movement has moved very, very quickly. In 30 years they've completely changed the cultural landscape. While I think this is great, it just wouldn't be rational to expect everyone to immediately adjust to such radical changes. I do wish there weren't so many gay rights advocates who understood that, that its not reasonable to expect everyone to just instantly change their beliefs when typically that kind of change happens in slow increments over a long length of time. So I don't just automatically think "oh if you are against gay marriage, you are a hateful bigot." However, a lot of the posts on this forum do come across as very hateful - NOT because they are against gay marriage, but because of the way they argue against it and the way in which they describe people who disagree with them.

I will not lie for your benefit. It is not because I hate you or because I don't care about you or other people. It's because I think you are wrong and I am not willing to lie about that fact. That's really all there is to it.
Ironic. Truly.
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  #116  
Old Jun 26, '12, 11:49 pm
karirodrigu0 karirodrigu0 is offline
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

I support gay rights for people who define themselves as gay and therefore find it hard to be otherwise. Regardless of whether it is proven that being gay is found in a person's genes or if it is a result of their environment, these people truly believe this, and not just one but many.

Here's a video about a lesbian woman who committed suicide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycbHnPhw8VQ
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  #117  
Old Jun 27, '12, 3:29 am
AndreaG1979 AndreaG1979 is offline
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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Ironic. Truly.

How is it ironic? I don't understand what you are trying to prove by the passages you highlighted. Not lying to someone to placate them does not equal hate, and neither does pointing out what Catholics are saying which come across as extremely bigoted and hurtful. Not to mention simply untrue.


The original poster said that anyone who doesn't think like her hates her and is attacking her. Later on, people say that anyone who thinks this way is selfish.

Why is it not hateful for those people to say those things originally, but it is hateful to simply state that is what people are saying!

So why did you highlight that passage as if it proves that what is being said is hateful. All the passage does is reflect what Catholics have posted here, nothing more.

Last edited by AndreaG1979; Jun 27, '12 at 3:42 am.
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  #118  
Old Jun 27, '12, 5:40 am
fix fix is offline
 
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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Originally Posted by SwizzleStick View Post
Ironic. Truly.
Yes, it would be funny if not so sad.
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  #119  
Old Jun 27, '12, 6:18 am
karoleck karoleck is offline
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Smile Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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Originally Posted by karirodrigu0 View Post
I support gay rights for people who define themselves as gay and therefore find it hard to be otherwise. Regardless of whether it is proven that being gay is found in a person's genes or if it is a result of their environment, these people truly believe this, and not just one but many.

Here's a video about a lesbian woman who committed suicide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycbHnPhw8VQ
You have posted yourself on your persona ,as "Catholic" to be a follower of Christ within The Catholic Church.To be a full active disciple, is to adhere to the Creed that is proclaimed at Mass every Sunday"I believe ALL that The Catholic Church believes and teaches".

An active same sex attaction lifestyle is not a "right" that is supported by Christ.It is against the Ten Commandments and the Catechism of The Catholic Church does not support your position,regardless of your best intentions.You are correct to have compassion on those who feel that life is so miserable that they take their own lives.The Church certainly asks us to love people who suffer from the disorder of a same sex attraction; but it does not ask us to approve of their acting out of this sin.

Here is a video link that might interest you ,as it is based from a protestant christian perspective.It is called Defining Marriage.

http://www.acl.org.au/2012/06/marriage-webcast/
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  #120  
Old Jun 27, '12, 9:32 am
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SwizzleStick SwizzleStick is offline
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Default Re: Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

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Originally Posted by AndreaG1979 View Post
How is it ironic? I don't understand what you are trying to prove by the passages you highlighted. Not lying to someone to placate them does not equal hate...
Exactly.

You really can't see it? Hmm. I guess that is pretty telling.

Here, let me help you. I'll quote the exact same words below, but add a couple of words in capital letters and change pronouns to clarify my point. Maybe that will help you see the irony.

Quote:
because the only reason HOMOSEXUALS seem to have for why someone doesn't think exactly like they do is that CATHOLICS are hateful and selfish and are out to get HOMOSEXUALS and make them feel bad.

Not agreeing with someone does not mean you hate him or her and are attacking him or her personally.

CATHOLICS will not lie for HOMOSEXUALS benefit. It is not because they hate or because they don't care about HOMOSEXUALS or other people. It's because they think HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLES are wrong and they are not willing to lie about that fact. That's really all there is to it.
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