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Old Jul 5, '12, 1:59 am
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RonPrice RonPrice is offline
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The Hebrew Bible, called The Old Testament by Christians, is an extraordinarily difficult sequence of books.1 This difficulty, too easily underestimated, is greater now than it ever was, partly because no contemporary reader, however specialized, shares in the psychology of the original readers and writers of The Bible. The first millennium in which anyone read any of the words in any of the books from 1000 B.C. to the time of Christ or, perhaps more accurately, 600 B.C. to 400 A.D.2

My first memories of The Old Testament come from Bible readings in grade six when I was 11 and my mother reading passages from little booklets from the Unity School of Christianity as early as the mid-1950s. Although some of the quotations had a broad ethical appeal to me even as a boy in my late childhood and early teens, I found the stories abstruse and distant: goats, sheep, tribes, and curious names like Balthazar and Nebuchadnezzar. They all occupied another universe far removed from my little town of 5000 in Ontario in that post-WW2 world of the 1950s. This distance existed then, as it does now, nearly 60 years later.

My individual understanding of The Bible, my biblical interpretations, rely primarily at the age of nearly 70 on my experience of nearly 60 years of intimate association with the Baha’i Faith. My interpretations and those of the Baha’i teachings are provocative, if nothing else. But I have always found there to be a vast distance from the psychic universe of the biblical writers beginning as early as, say, 900 B.C.2 and the contemporary society that is my world. I know I have lots of company; indeed I rarely meet anyone who actually reads The Old Testament any more.

However abstruse the language of biblical prophecy and eschatology, the prophets of The Old Testament, I believe, were given a foreknowledge of the events of our times in their visions, visions which I’m sure they hardly understood themselves. Still, there lies a sure presentation of the times we are living-through, as long as one does not take those prophecies literally.

Yahweh's choice of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants as part of the Chosen People story was a permanent decision, intended to prevail into a time without boundaries, into our time.-Ron Price with thanks to 1Harold Bloom, “Prose and Poetry,” in The New York Times, 17 October, 1982: a review of Dan Jacobson’s THE STORY OF THE STORIES: The Chosen People and Its God, and 2the final editor, or redactor, after the return from the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BC, put all the books of The Old Testament into something like their present form.3

When this review appeared in1

The New York Times I had just

arrived in Australia’s Northern

Territory & the heat of summer

was just beginning to make me

run for cover to air-conditioning

in my office, home and the cool

air of the car. The Old Testament

was on my universe’s periphery.

There it had always been in heat and

cold since those first stories when I

was in grade six in that little town in

Ontario’s Golden Horseshoe where

everyone I knew was Catholic or Jew

or Protestant, or nothing; yes, mostly

nothing and there they have remained

with that Old Testament far removed

from everyone’s everyday life. Still…

I have time now to try to get into it in

this the evening of my life; however

complex and abstruse it may be, I want

to make-up for the decades when it had

to remain far out on my life’s periphery.

1Harold Bloom, “Prose and Poetry,” in The New York Times, 17 October, 1982: a review of Dan Jacobson’sTHE STORY OF THE STORIES: The Chosen People and Its God.
3 See Frank Kermode, “God Speaks Through His Women,” in The New York Times, 23 September 1990: a review of Harold Bloom’s The Book of J.
Ron Price
5 July 2012

married for 48 years, a teacher for 32, a student for 18, a writer and editor for 16, and a Baha'i for 56(in 2015)

Last edited by RonPrice; Jul 5, '12 at 2:00 am. Reason: to fix the paragraphing
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Old Jul 5, '12, 6:35 am
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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The Old Tesament is esier to undersand that most people think.

There are fourteen narrative books of the Bible. These tell the narrative, or the story. All the other books of the Bible are supplemental to these fourteen books which include; Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Joshua, Judges, 1 & 2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings, Ezra, Nehemiah, 1 Maccabees, Luke, and Acts.

For example, the Book of Job is the 22nd book of the Bible, right before the Pslams, but it is supplemental to Genesis. It expounds, explains and supplements Genesis.

There are very good Bible studies do a great job of introducing the Jewish way of thinking, some of the intracacies of and quirks of Hebrew storytelling, and which follow and outline the general narrative thread which runs through the Bible, the story of salvation. One of the best is "The Bible Timeline" by Great Adventure/Jeff Cavins. I highly recommend it.

Personally, for me, the Old Testament is a treasure chest. It is a little difficult to open, but once you get a basic understanding of how it is constructed and how the storyline can be identified and followed, it is an amazing trove of treasures - diamonds and pearls of great price - there for our taking. I'm reading it through for the third time now.

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Old Jul 5, '12, 9:36 am
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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You are welcome here and we are glad about your interest in the Bible. I have no knowledge of the Baha'i faith. Nothing I say here is intended to give you offense in any way for your beliefs.

What I've heard sometime in the past, is that there is no religion on earth like Christianity, where the divine being we call God came to earth in human form, to die, for the salvation of all peoples. I do not know how that compares with anything in the Baha'i faith.

Yes, the writings of The Bible are difficult to understand. There are repetitions, contradictions, sections of writings that seem like fantasy, and all this IS compounded by the age of the writings.

Yes, it is even well-documented in the Bible that the "chosen people" didn't have an enduring faith, even when they seemingly should have. That emphasizes the steadfast mercy of God in completing the "plan" for salvation.

Yes, if our God is so powerful, we wonder many things about it -- why there are so many versions of Christianity, even in the Western countries. We wonder why God does not reveal himself in a much more dramatic way, once and for all, to convince all peoples to immediately convert religion, to repent of their sins, and to worship him in one united fashion. But, in the Bible, we learn to trust in the ways of God and we are told to obey his commands.

Yes, when we look at the universe (as mankind has never seen the universe in anybody's lifetime) how all this could be possible.

But, I believe that there is one God, one Savior, one Bible, and one Church -- the Roman Catholic Church -- to explain all of it and to extend the hope of salvation to all mankind. Every man, woman, and child is called and invited to share in this faith.

Quite frankly, I think this is the only hope of mankind to survive on this planet, until the joyful coming in glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The late Pope John Paul II, in the book Crossing the Threshold of Hope suggested that all peoples of mankind are yearning for Jesus Christ, even if they do not realize it. This statement may be offensive to many, but it was said ONLY in the most positive and encouraging way to welcome all peoples to come to Jesus, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Old Testament "points" to Jesus Christ, even if it does so only in veiled and indirect ways.

You are invited to pray to God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- three in One God) right now, even if you don't feel that you have faith yet -- to pray FOR that faith and understanding. Believe in Jesus Christ. He died in human form for you.
I rejoiced when they said to me, let us go up to the house of the Lord.
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Old Jul 9, '12, 10:33 am
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arthra arthra is offline
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I know Ron should reply here but Crumpy wrote above:

What I've heard sometime in the past, is that there is no religion on earth like Christianity, where the divine being we call God came to earth in human form, to die, for the salvation of all peoples. I do not know how that compares with anything in the Baha'i faith.

I think the Hindu concept of Avatar also believes God can incarnate in human form..but as to the Baha'i Faith we do not believe that God incarnates in the flesh.. Baha'is do believe that the Manifestation of God such as Jesus was martyred for the salvation of all peoples...

Notwithstanding His knowledge of what would befall Him, He arose to proclaim His message, suffered all tribulation and hardships from the people and finally offered His life as a sacrifice in order to illumine humanity -- gave His blood in order to guide the world of mankind. He accepted every calamity and suffering in order to guide men to the truth.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 449
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Old Jul 9, '12, 12:07 pm
fred conty fred conty is offline
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Tim expressed my thoughts.

To me the Old Testiment is like the flow of a large river.
The main stream is the important part that keeps going and then comes to an end by dumping into the larger body of the ocean, the New Testiment. The main stream is easy to navigate and flows nicely. It's the byous and bays and incoming streams that contribute to the main stream that seem to be the mysterous parts of the main river.

There are many nice summaries of the O.T. which hilight the important parts and filter out much of the confusion, and make it easier to see where it is going.

Now as for scholars, they are on a different level.

Just a thought.
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Old Jul 9, '12, 1:05 pm
teeboy teeboy is offline
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Purchase a Roman Missal. We do a reading from OT, St. Paul, and Gospel every day of every year. Go to mass every day, read the readings, and listen to the oral teaching in the priest's homily.

The 3 readings often have a common theme. The gospel is an improvement on the OT reading. Continuity in time with respect to teachings along with a theme of building up or improvement with respect to The Kingdom of God.

Convert to Catholicism first so you can receive the manna or Eucharist. This will increase your learning experience as well as your love for God.
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Old Jul 9, '12, 1:08 pm
teeboy teeboy is offline
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Memorize the capital sins and virtues.

Often the daily theme revolvs around one of these.
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Old Jun 28, '13, 10:28 pm
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RonPrice RonPrice is offline
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It has been some time since I have been able to get back to this forum and this thread. I thank those who have made their comments and, rather than write "point by point" in relation to the comments that have come in, I think I'll write some more about The Old Testament since that was where I came in here nearly 1 year ago.-Ron Price, Australia
I have put most of the Old Testament in the category of literature and mythology. The facts, the facticity, of Abraham and Moses, I am happy to run with as historical figures even if archeology can't find any evidence of their existence. I'm not a Jew so I am not in the difficult position of having my convictions, at least the early history of my religion, in the category of myth.

If I was a Jew, I think I'd be one of the secular Jews, perhaps somewhat like Harold Bloom in his approach to Judaism(although he would not claim to be a Jew even by culture) As it is---I am a Baha'i and the historicity of my religion is not at issue; indeed, the Baha'i has the opposite problem of having a detailed account of its historical origins. -Ron

How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the abomination of desolation....?....2300 days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.-Daniel, The Old Testament.

Horrors are not new in our long history
of abomination and desolation as our
world has found a warm, slowly growing
privacy, within a complex bedlam of modernity
and alienation in mass places: factories, schools,
hospitals, prisons and the very pervasiveness of life.

This concentration of emotional energy in the family
and imagination, as we try to grasp the immense
complexity of order and motion with images of endless
innocence and power in the wretches and names of history:
idiots, chimney-sweeps, illegitimate children, orphans,
nursemaids, pick-pockets, misery in coal mines, factories,
building sites and slums, kings and princes, philosophers
and inventors. We find our identity with everyone we know.

A name-within-a-family and its deeply intensive emotional
nerve centre amidst the vast anodyne processes on freeways,
playspaces, shopping centres, industrial estates, towns and
cites everywhere, codified now by Marx, Freud and a 1000
analysts in a consumer culture where dreams still tantalize
the marketplace and that tempest still sweeps the earth.

Ron Price
21/6/'97 to 29/6/'13.
married for 48 years, a teacher for 32, a student for 18, a writer and editor for 16, and a Baha'i for 56(in 2015)
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Old Aug 13, '15, 11:51 pm
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It has been more than 2 years since I was last on this thread, a thread I have just reread to bring me up-to-date. I'll add some more on the Old Testament to keep the theme alive and well.-Ron

Part 1:

The acclaimed American novelist and playwright E. L. Doctorow has given writers like myself many writing tips. He died less than 4 weeks ago, on 21 July 2015, in Manhattan at the age of 84 due to complications from lung cancer. I write the following out of appreciation for a writer who, for the most part, remained far out on the periphery of my reading experience in the last 60 years. I have followed his life, as I have followed my own, in the paragraphs below. He placed the Old Testament in a useful context, a context I refer to below and, for this reason I post this prose-poetic piece below. My post is a little long and I invite those with an interest in the subject to read it; others are advised to skim or scan or simply stop reading now.-Ron Price, Australia
Edgar Lawrence "E. L." Doctorow was born in 1931 and became an American author, editor, and professor, best known internationally for his works of historical fiction. He has been described as one of the most important American novelists of the 20th century. He’s America's "very own Charles Dickens", wrote a reviewer of his work in The Guardian.1 He came into my reading life in the mid-1980s when I was an adult educator and lecturer in a college of technical and further education in Australia. I must confess, though, that it was not until his death nearly 4 weeks ago, as I write this quasi-eulogy, that I really came to know much about his life and his literary work, his epic oeuvre. He authored twelve novels, three volumes of short fiction and a stage drama. They included the award-winning novels Ragtime (1975, Billy Bathgate (1989), and The March (2005). These, like many of his other works, placed fictional characters in recognizable historical contexts, with known historical figures, and often used different narrative styles. His stories were recognized for their originality and versatility, and Doctorow was praised for his audacity and imagination.2

When asked how he decided to become a writer, he said, "I was a child who read everything I could get my hands on. Eventually, I asked of a story not only what was to happen next, but how was this done? How is it that I am made to live, to experience another world, from just words on a page? And so I became a writer. I knew at the age of 9 that I wanted to be a writer."-Ron Price with thanks to: 1Alison Flood, 17/4/’14, The Guardian; and 2Wikipedia, 3 August 2015.

Part 2:

I, too, have been asked how I became a writer. At the age of 9 I wanted to be a baseball player, having decided against being a brick-layer. But, by the age of 18, I knew I could not make a career out of baseball. At the age of 18 writing had become more important to me than sport and having fun. I have answered the question of how I became a writer in many ways. I became a writer, by sensible and insensible degrees, beginning in my childhood and adolescence, and ending when I retired, also be degrees, from a 50 year life of paid employment, FT, PT and casual in the years 1953 to 2003. I have now been on an old-age pension, and writing FT for a dozen years: 2004 to 2015.

Doctorow has not been part of my literary life in the more than 60 years since I began to spend a great deal of my time with printed matter, and in his career which spans 50 years. I have one book in my possession which he had published in 1984: Lives of the Poets. But it is a book I have yet to read along with literally 100s of other books that are waiting for me to read as I go through my 70s and 80s, if I last that long.

He published his first novel, Welcome to Hard Times, in 1960 following a stint as a script reader for movie studio Columbia Pictures. In 1960 I was just starting to take an interest in writing, but sport and girls, having fun and my studies in grade 11 took priority. In 1960 I was 16, and had just joined the Baha’i Faith. In 1969, Doctorow left publishing to pursue a writing career. He accepted a position as Visiting Writer at the University of California, Irvine, where he completed The Book of Daniel (1971).

As he was beginning his writing career, I was beginning my teaching career in Canada. When his The Book of Daniel was published in 1971, I was beginning my teaching career in Australia, and helping to form the first locally elected Baha’i administrative body in Whyalla South Australia, the first such body outside the capital cities of western and central Australia. This 1971 book was widely acclaimed, called a "masterpiece" by The Guardian, and by The New York Times a book to launch the author into "the first rank of American writers." I knew nothing of Doctorow at the time occupied, as I was, with 60 to 70 hours a week of teaching and community responsibilities, to say nothing of the demands of my personal and family life in a new country far from my home and hearth.

Part 3:

Doctorow’s work depicts various eras and personalities in American history and has been published in 30 languages. In most of his novels he demonstrated "that the past is very much alive, but that it's not easily accessed," writes Jay Parini(1948-), an American writer and academic also known for novels and poetry, biography and criticism. "We tell and retell stories”, Parini continued, “and these stories illuminate our daily lives. Doctorow has shown us again and again that our past is our present, and that those not willing to grapple with 'what happened' will be condemned to repeat its worst errors." "History is the present," the author once said, "that's why every generation writes it anew."
married for 48 years, a teacher for 32, a student for 18, a writer and editor for 16, and a Baha'i for 56(in 2015)
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Old Aug 13, '15, 11:54 pm
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Part 3: (cont'd)

American history was "not a conscious decision, but somewhere along the line I must have realized a slice of time was as valid an organizing principle for a novel as a bit of acreage, a place."1 “If you are writing well what you need is things that come to you like you are a magnet, and just when you need something you find it somehow. The idea of being a historian just doesn’t interest me.”2 Yes, all of the above seems to be my experience as well, at least in these last 50-plus years, and especially since I first began to publish what I wrote in the 1970s and 1980s.

In an interview back in the early 1990s, Doctorow made the following point: “Nietzsche said there can be no facts without meaning, so what facts does the historian choose to put together to create his picture, his understanding, his interpretation, and what facts does he leave out? This is also true of the autobiographer. There are no facts which I write about my life “without meaning.” In some ways I feel that I am autobiographer and historian, poet and publisher, online blogger and journalist in this, the evening of my life.

An obituary in The New York Times by Bruce Weber on 21/7/’15 emphasized Doctorow’s myriad storytelling strategies, strategies which deployed, in different books, the unreliable narrator, the stream-of-consciousness narrator, the omniscient narrator and multiple narrators, Mr. Doctorow was one of contemporary fiction’s most restless experimenters.

Part 4:

“Storytelling is the most ancient system of knowledge we have,” said Doctorow in an interview, “and the storytellers in the oral, in the Bronze Age, whether it was Homer or the people who essentially eventually put The Bible--The Old Testament--together, worked under a system, the only system they had. Their science was religious illumination. They didn't separate the functions of language the way we do; we have science and we have religion and we have daily communication; we have poetry, we have all these things, but in the Bronze Age, they were fused; there were no differences among these things.

And so it was that they able to pass along information, to educate the young, to connect the visible to the invisible, the past to the present, and to distribute the suffering so something new could be born. The very act of telling a story had a presumption of truth. The very act of telling a story meant it was the truth, but then along came the Enlightenment and Galileo, and Bacon said, "You have to make observations and prove things to make them true." At that point, storytelling lost its authority, and today, it's only children who believe the act of telling a story carries with it a presumption of truth. Children and fundamentalists.

Part 5:

“At a certain point, the difference between music in music, and music in words became elided in my mind," Doctorow says. "I became attentive to the sound of words and the rhythm of sentences in some way that I'm not even aware of." That has certainly been true of my experience of writing as it developed over the years. The connection between music and words has fuelled much of my writing and the writing of E.L. Doctorow as well. These days, he listens to less music than before. "I seem to appreciate quiet," he says. "When I'm writing, I like to seal everything off and face the wall, not to look outside the window. The only way out of the silence and the solitude is through the sentences." I could not have put my own experience, now as I go through my 70s, more accurately.

F. O. Matthiessen(1902-1950) was an educator, scholar and literary critic influential in the fields of American literature and American studies. He quoted what George Santayana called "the genteel tradition." George Santayana(1863-1952), was a philosopher, essayist, poet, and novelist. Santayana said that the result of this genteel tradition "has been to make art an adornment rather than an organic expression of life, to confuse it with politeness and delicacy . . . and to think of literature as somehow dependent upon the better born groups of richer standing."3

I’m not so sure this is still true but, whatever the case, E.L. Doctorow’s work stands outside this tradition. “Doctorow was one of America's greatest novelists. –Ron Price with thanks to:1Alison Flood, The Guardian, 17/4/’14; 2 Saeed Kamali Dehghan, 29/7/’15, The Guardian; and 3Jack London, Hemingway and the Constitution, reviewed by Christopher Lehmann-Haupt in The New York Times, November 4, 1993.
married for 48 years, a teacher for 32, a student for 18, a writer and editor for 16, and a Baha'i for 56(in 2015)
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Old Aug 13, '15, 11:58 pm
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Part 6:

Doctorow described, admiringly, the true poet as follows: “what defined a poet was that he didn't stop being a poet between poems. Poetry was not something one practiced but a state of being in which every moment of one's existence was amplified." This state of being grew on me slowly as the decades advanced and, by my 60s, that state of being stayed with me. Doctorow is a writer whose style and vision remain too cerebral, too lyrical -- too writerly -- to survive translation into a series of images.

Making his novels into films is, therefore, not easy. ''The literary experience that is the act of reading or writing a novel extends visual impressions into discourse. It flowers to thought with nouns, verbs, objects. It thinks. Film implodes discourse, it deliterates thought, it shrinks it to the compacted meaning of the preverbal impression or intuition or understanding.1-Ron Price with thanks to 1The New York Times, 5/3/’00, a review of Doctorow’s The City of God by A.O. Scott.

Often, Doctorow argues “a famous person often composes a fiction about himself or herself, which he or she tries to present to the world before the writer even gets to him, and my little joke is that if you want to read real fiction about JP Morgan, read his authorised biography. Henry Kissinger has written several volumes of self-justification, which he claims to be accurate and objective about his sometime unsavoury accomplishments,” he chuckled.”1-Ron Price with thanks to 1 Saeed Kamali Dehghan, op.cit.

Doctorow explained why writers are often at odds with politicians. “When you pick up a novel, you know it’s fiction. When you hear a politician speaking, he claims it’s not fiction. Politicians, like novelists, know that reality is amenable, politicians know that, writers know that, which is why writers are usually in trouble with politicians,” he said. “In order to see on to the unseen, you may have to change some things around, but the truth is there, the truth is not totally attainable by facts. That’s the novelists’s point of view, that there are greater truths to be reached. It is literature, “intuitive, metaphysical, mythic”, which takes us to the heart of the social reality of life. When you construct a sentence not obligated to the factual endowments, your intuition and imagination define the greater truth.”2-idem.

Part 7:

His books taught me much, and he will be missed.--President Obama, 22/7/’15.
married for 48 years, a teacher for 32, a student for 18, a writer and editor for 16, and a Baha'i for 56(in 2015)
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