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  #16  
Old Mar 29, '10, 7:00 am
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NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
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Default Re: Old Testament Atrocities

Quote:
Originally Posted by dav3203 View Post
NotWorthy, if in your first post ("God can look into the soul of that Baby and reward him (or punish him) by seeing what kind of person that baby would have been") you are meaning that God is capable of judging decisions we would only hypothetically make, I would strongly disagree. It doesn't strike me as being consistent with Church teaching at all. Could you clarify? Predestination, in the sense that our actions are pre-determined and affect our complete freedom, is certainly contrary to Church doctrine...
I do certainly agree, however, that belief in God and life after death makes all the difference in our understanding of all things...
I never mentioned pre-destination, or meant to imply that.

God exists outside of time, and can see all time at any single moment.

And He can tell future events, even while allowing us to make our decisions. If you read 1st Samuel, you will come across an incident where David asks God (through Nathan the prophet) to determine what Saul will do, based upon David's actions. If David stays in a town, will Saul pursue and kill him? God replies that he will. But if David flees the town and heads out into the wilderness, will Saul pursue him? God replies that Saul will give up the chase.

Were any of these two event pre-determined? No. God can see what happens based on the hearts of men.

Again, let me repeat a point I made on a previous post. If a person dies without ever knowing Christ, doesn't the Church teach that God judges that person based on what would have happened had he ever learned of Christ?
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  #17  
Old Mar 29, '10, 3:13 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Old Testament Atrocities

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Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
Again, let me repeat a point I made on a previous post. If a person dies without ever knowing Christ, doesn't the Church teach that God judges that person based on what would have happened had he ever learned of Christ?
Not exactly. There is a condition regarding a person's real time actions. It is supposed that a person who seeks truth and acts in accord with his understanding of God's will would have wanted to be baptized had he known about it. The idea that Baptism "would have been desired" is based on the actual facts of a person's life, i.e., the way in which the person lived day by day.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.

Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His Sacraments.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 1257-1261

Use this handy link for the Catechism www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Blessings,
granny

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  #18  
Old Mar 29, '10, 3:48 pm
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Default Re: Old Testament Atrocities

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Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
Not exactly. There is a condition regarding a person's real time actions. It is supposed that a person who seeks truth and acts in accord with his understanding of God's will would have wanted to be baptized had he known about it. The idea that Baptism "would have been desired" is based on the actual facts of a person's life, i.e., the way in which the person lived day by day.
Thanks for clearing that up!

Now, back to the context of the OP, according to all you've just posted, the innocent babies would not fit under that category, since they haven't had a chance to live their lives. I know the Church is silent on these matters, for example aborted children. So, I guess, all we can do is opine and trust in the Will of God. Of course, that 2nd little caveat is a little tough for an athiest; hence, I can only resort to opining.
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  #19  
Old Mar 29, '10, 4:10 pm
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: Old Testament Atrocities

Quote:
=dav3203;5966153]Hello to everyone!

NB I'm seeking direct (explanatory) responses to this particular issue...

Situation:
A common accusation is that the God of the Old Testament is 'evil' - or, to quote Dawkins, "a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully" (from his bestseller ) Now this kind of accusation is (like Dawkins') generally accompanied by rhetoric but no real evidence other than a handful of OT quotes (for instance 1 Samuel 15:13).
So naturally this kind of accusation has not really been addressed seriously by most Christians, because it's simply a weak argument. However, despite that truth, it raises a point - those handfuls of quotes certainly don't sit easily with our modern understanding of God.

Of course, exploring the historical and literal context (form criticism) and its implications, will be of key importance in coming to an understanding that allows these quotes to agree with our modern understanding; my question would be how exactly we explain this process. What exactly do these contexts entail?

<NB: One argument I came across in my search for this explanation was William Lane Craig's defense ("Did God Commit Atrocities in the Old Testament?" - see reasonablefaith.org) - while I respect him very much I wasn't satisfied with his explanation, which as I understand it went like this:
*If God commands us to do something, then the very fact of his command is reason enough to explain the change of the moral status of an action, even an action which may originally have been immoral. Thus, for example, Abraham's action to sacrifice Isaac - in the absence of a command from God - would indeed have been atrocious. But the very fact that God issued his command to Abraham, changes the situation altogether. What was originally an immoral action is now an act of submission, of obedience toward God. Thus Abraham commits no wrong.*
Now there isn't anything illogical about this, and I have taken it out of the full context of his argument (it's only a small part of his talk) but even as a whole, this argument and others don't appear to be satisfactory. I know that many things don't have a satisfactory answer, but answers like these really don't cut it.>

So, what are some of your responses?
The explaination is evident, simple and to the point.

God is and has to be All Good

God too is Perfect in everyway

God has to be JUST. Anyone that has actually read the OT in it's entirety knows factually that God punishments were a direct [and warned] response to there falling away; turning to "other god's" and pagan practices.

When they Obeyed and turned back to God he did very many GOOD things for them.

When, as very often they chose to ignore God; disobey God and His Prophets; He administered Divine Justice. [ya get what ya ask for]

The reason we have an issue understanding this today is that dispite the current evils of sex abuse, abortion, catholics in name only, the very Ordinary Mass, ect; God for reasons ONLY GOD can understand, has been patient in inflicting His Jutice upon us. I'm personally of the mind that He's allowing us to destroy ourselves and all that He has Blessed us with. And it seems to be comming soon and very soon.


If yo find yorself in a situation of defending the faith, ask fo a precise nd specific example; get your bible out and read two chapters before and one after, and you'll have sufficient evidence to make yor point that God is GOOD BUT JUST!
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  #20  
Old Mar 29, '10, 4:21 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Old Testament Atrocities

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
Thanks for clearing that up!

Now, back to the context of the OP, according to all you've just posted, the innocent babies would not fit under that category, since they haven't had a chance to live their lives. I know the Church is silent on these matters, for example aborted children. So, I guess, all we can do is opine and trust in the Will of God. Of course, that 2nd little caveat is a little tough for an athiest; hence, I can only resort to opining.
This is my favorite dilemma. Because it has such a happy solution.

What you said about trusting in God is seen in Jesus' tenderness toward children: "Let the children come to Me, do not hinder them." This gives us the hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1261)

While most people refer to paragraph 1261, my favorite is paragraph 1257 because its last line includes everyone, especially children lost through miscarriage or abortion. While most people talk about God's mercy, I like to think about God's common sense when it comes to out-of-the-ordinary events. God provides for these difficult events, especially when they involve innocent life in the womb. Think about the last sentence in paragraph 1257 to understand what I am saying about God's overwhelming love.

"God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments."

This is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Put the paragraph number in the search box and you can enter the Catechism at that point.

Blessings,
granny

Spring is God's message of faith in the future.
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  #21  
Old Mar 29, '10, 6:10 pm
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Default Re: Old Testament Atrocities

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Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
This is my favorite dilemma. Because it has such a happy solution.

What you said about trusting in God is seen in Jesus' tenderness toward children: "Let the children come to Me, do not hinder them." This gives us the hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1261)

While most people refer to paragraph 1261, my favorite is paragraph 1257 because its last line includes everyone, especially children lost through miscarriage or abortion. While most people talk about God's mercy, I like to think about God's common sense when it comes to out-of-the-ordinary events. God provides for these difficult events, especially when they involve innocent life in the womb. Think about the last sentence in paragraph 1257 to understand what I am saying about God's overwhelming love.

"God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments."

This is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Put the paragraph number in the search box and you can enter the Catechism at that point.

Blessings,
granny

Spring is God's message of faith in the future.
God has common sense?!? Then explain the mosquito to me, please!

Seriously, thanks for the info. (I think that) my thoughts on the "innocent children" who would have been slain by the Israelites would fit into this teaching.
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  #22  
Old Mar 30, '10, 7:09 am
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Default Re: Old Testament Atrocities

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Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
Thanks for clearing that up!

Now, back to the context of the OP, according to all you've just posted, the innocent babies would not fit under that category, since they haven't had a chance to live their lives. I know the Church is silent on these matters, for example aborted children. So, I guess, all we can do is opine and trust in the Will of God. Of course, that 2nd little caveat is a little tough for an athiest; hence, I can only resort to opining.
One point to remember - God is perfectly just.
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  #23  
Old Mar 30, '10, 7:22 am
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Default Re: Old Testament Atrocities

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Originally Posted by buffalo View Post
One point to remember - God is perfectly just.
True! But, personally, I pray for His Mercy over His Justice!
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