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  #31  
Old Nov 26, '12, 9:17 am
malphono malphono is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

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Originally Posted by PazzoGrande View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bilop View Post
Also, there can be lay Cardinals. The last one was in the mid-19th century, IIRC.
Yep, but that was outlawed in the 1917 Code and was reiterated in the 1983 Code. So canonically there can't be anymore.
Well ... I suppose that depends. The practice may have been abrogated in Canon Law, but the lawgiver is not actually subject to the law. Ergo, if the Roman Pontiff wanted to bestow the honor on a non-cleric, he could, in effect, dispense himself from the law.
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  #32  
Old Nov 26, '12, 9:20 am
bilop bilop is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

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Originally Posted by PazzoGrande View Post
Yep, but that was outlawed in the 1917 Code and was reiterated in the 1983 Code. So canonically there can't be anymore.
The Pope is free to change that if he wished to name a lay Cardinal.

God Bless

Edit: Coke to Malphono
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  #33  
Old Nov 26, '12, 9:21 am
malphono malphono is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

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Brother, you are a fathomless well of knowledge!
Not really, but thank you anyway.

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Originally Posted by mardukm View Post
Geez Louise! How old are you?!!
I'm not going there, but if I did you might be surprised. Or not.
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  #34  
Old Nov 26, '12, 9:51 am
yawsep1569 yawsep1569 is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

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Originally Posted by PazzoGrande View Post
That's interesting. It raises two questions though:

#1 Cardinals are superior to Bishops, so isn't accepting a Cardinalate while declining the Episcopate a logical fallacy because being a Cardinal is even higher?
I'm not sure that this is true, or even if it is possible for it to be true. In my eyes, the cardinalate is a completely different category than the episcopate. If one insisted on comparing them, I would have to maintain the episcopate is far superior rather than the other way around (as odd as the comparison remains).
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  #35  
Old Nov 26, '12, 9:51 am
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

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Originally Posted by PazzoGrande View Post
#1 Cardinals are superior to Bishops, so isn't accepting a Cardinalate while declining the Episcopate a logical fallacy because being a Cardinal is even higher?
I thought Cardinals were only higher in honor, not jurisdiction - and even then, only within the Latin Church (which explains why even non-Latin Patriarchs will rank lower than Latin bishops), not within the Church universal.

From what I read, bishops are higher than cardinals in one sense - cardinals don't have judicial jurisdictional powers.

Don't know much about cardinals, so I'm open to correction.

Blessings,
Marduk
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  #36  
Old Nov 26, '12, 11:47 am
PazzoGrande PazzoGrande is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

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Originally Posted by mardukm View Post

From what I read, bishops are higher than cardinals in one sense - cardinals don't have judicial jurisdictional powers.
Yeah actually a Cardinal has zero jurisdiction unless if he's a Bishop of something or in a dicastery where his duties are only an extension of the Pope's.

That being said, the Pope, Cardinals and Metropolitan Archbishops (only within their Provinces) are the only ones not under the jurisdiction of a local Bishop. That would suggest that Cardinals are superior to Bishops, I'd think.
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  #37  
Old Nov 26, '12, 2:10 pm
LumenGent LumenGent is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

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Originally Posted by PazzoGrande View Post
Yeah actually a Cardinal has zero jurisdiction unless if he's a Bishop of something or in a dicastery where his duties are only an extension of the Pope's.

That being said, the Pope, Cardinals and Metropolitan Archbishops (only within their Provinces) are the only ones not under the jurisdiction of a local Bishop. That would suggest that Cardinals are superior to Bishops, I'd think.
There are Cardinals that are not Metropolitan Archbishops, the Bishop of the Diocese of Mainz Germany is proof of that, ergo, not being subject to a local Bishop is not a sign of superiority. Local Bishops aren't subject to the Metropolitan Archbishop either.

The Cardinalate is an honorific of the Latin Church. If it confers any "superiority", it allows the person to elect the Pope, but that also has some limitations as it only concerns Cardinals under 80.
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  #38  
Old Nov 26, '12, 7:38 pm
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choliks choliks is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

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Originally Posted by PazzoGrande View Post
That's interesting. It raises two questions though:

#1 Cardinals are superior to Bishops, so isn't accepting a Cardinalate while declining the Episcopate a logical fallacy because being a Cardinal is even higher?
#2 How come some Jesuits out there still accepted the Episcopate? The Cardinal Archbishop of Buenos Aires is a Jesuit, for example. Is it up to each Jesuit's interpretation of his promise whether or not he could accept an episcopate or not, or is it something a superior would have to dispense of?

Or of course in any case the obligation to obedience to the Holy Father could be reason enough for them to take on the task.

It's fascinating.
I'll try answer this briefly. Please pardon the short derailment.

1. The raising to the episcopate can be dispensed by the Pope. Cardinal Herni de Lubac is a good example of this. When Pope Paul VI offered to make de Lubac a Cardinal, the Jesuit theologian showed reluctance as he thought that making him a bishop is an abuse of an apostolic office. He would later relent when Pope John Paul II made him a Cardinal but dispensed of the requirement to be raised to the episcopate.

2. The superior in this case is the Holy Father, and obedience to him is the reason. I think it is also important to note, that the promise is not part of the solemn vows.

This is the promise:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Consitutions, Society of Jesus
I will never strive or ambition, not even indirectly, to be chosen or promoted to any prelacy or dignity in or outside the Society; and I will do my best never to consent to my election unless I am forced to do so by obedience to him who can order me under penalty of sin
Now back to regular programming.
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Domine Iesu Christe, Fili Dei, miserere mei, peccatoris.

Fratres, orare pro me peccatore.
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  #39  
Old Nov 26, '12, 10:09 pm
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

Dear brother PazzoGrande,

After some more reading, I found an indication that Cardinals are not superior to bishops. In the old Catholic Encyclopedia in the article on Cardinals, it states that a Cardinal can choose a confessor from anywhere, but the permission of the local bishop must be obtained. If a Cardinal was truly superior to a bishop, such permission would not be required.

I think the proper understanding is that only within the context and protocols of the College of Cardinals can we find a "confusion" of the normal order of the Church hierarchy. But outside of that context, a Cardinal would not be superior to a bishop (unless the Cardinal was himself a bishop that was jurisdictionally superior, such as a Metropolitan). Even granting that this "confusion" of hierarchical order extends outside the context of the College of Cardinals, it would only apply to the order within the Latin Catholic Church, not the Church universal.

Again, I'm open to correction on this.

Blessings,
Marduk

Quote:
Originally Posted by PazzoGrande View Post
That being said, the Pope, Cardinals and Metropolitan Archbishops (only within their Provinces) are the only ones not under the jurisdiction of a local Bishop. That would suggest that Cardinals are superior to Bishops, I'd think.
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  #40  
Old Nov 27, '12, 2:26 pm
twf twf is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

Quote:
Originally Posted by mardukm View Post
Dear brother PazzoGrande,

After some more reading, I found an indication that Cardinals are not superior to bishops. In the old Catholic Encyclopedia in the article on Cardinals, it states that a Cardinal can choose a confessor from anywhere, but the permission of the local bishop must be obtained. If a Cardinal was truly superior to a bishop, such permission would not be required.

I think the proper understanding is that only within the context and protocols of the College of Cardinals can we find a "confusion" of the normal order of the Church hierarchy. But outside of that context, a Cardinal would not be superior to a bishop (unless the Cardinal was himself a bishop that was jurisdictionally superior, such as a Metropolitan). Even granting that this "confusion" of hierarchical order extends outside the context of the College of Cardinals, it would only apply to the order within the Latin Catholic Church, not the Church universal.

Again, I'm open to correction on this.

Blessings,
Marduk
I think you are correct in as far as jurisdiction goes. A cardinal has no inherent jurisdiction as a cardinal; rather, he exercises jurisdiction as the head of a Roman dicastery or a the ordinary of a particular church. A cardinal ranks above other bishops in honor as he is given a special vocation as an advisor of the pope in his petrine ministry and as an elector of the pope's successor. The average layman thinks of cardinals as a class above bishops, but in terms of jurisdiction this is only so because the vast majority are either heads of dicasteries or metropolitans.
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  #41  
Old Dec 19, '12, 2:18 am
jeannetherese jeannetherese is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

Reported.
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  #42  
Old Jan 31, '13, 10:20 pm
griego catolico griego catolico is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

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Originally Posted by malphono View Post
FYI, Maronite Patriarchs have worn red (of a slightly different shade than that of Roman Cardinals), including the tobiyye (our version of the Syriac "turban") (and please forgive me but I can never remember the proper Syriac name for it), for many centuries. .
Malphono,

Is the Syriac "turban" called a ܟܰܠܳܘܐ ܩܰܘܘܓ ? I found the word in Article 125 of the Constitution of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch the http://www.soc-wus.org/ourchurch/constitutioneng.html

Quote:
Chapter Nine
Clerical Vestments
Article 125. H. H. The Patriarch wears purple cloth and a black robe with purple hems. He also wears a cross and two icons on his chest, the monastic hood (آܐܣܟܝܡܐ) and the turban (ܟܰܠܳܘܐ ܩܰܘܘܓ) on his head.
Also, found these words-- Mudi Thoppi, Koob'uono, Kawuk, Quba'tho, Skeemo, Koob'uono, Koobastho --from the following site: http://www.dieter-philippi.de/en/the...ad-coverings-1

The word koob'uono has shown up in another reference:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/20522

Is koob'uono the most common word for the Syriac "turban"?
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  #43  
Old Feb 6, '13, 12:48 pm
SyroMalankara SyroMalankara is offline
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Default Re: A new Cardinal with Black dress instead of Red

mudi thoppi is Malayalam, the local language used in S. Kerala.

It basically translates to cover/hair hat.
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