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  #1  
Old Aug 10, '11, 4:22 pm
Phurst78 Phurst78 is offline
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Cool Co Redemption

Been having a discussion with an Evangelical over co-redemption. I used the scripture passage from John where Jesus states "you will do these things and more.." as a foundation. Got hammered with some scripture passages as well as no where in the bible does Jesus says anyone else participates in redemption.
I fired back, no where does it say we don't either. Can ya help a brother out?
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  #2  
Old Aug 10, '11, 4:30 pm
Fr of Jazz Fr of Jazz is offline
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Default Re: Co Redemption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phurst78 View Post
Been having a discussion with an Evangelical over co-redemption. I used the scripture passage from John where Jesus states "you will do these things and more.." as a foundation. Got hammered with some scripture passages as well as no where in the bible does Jesus says anyone else participates in redemption.
I fired back, no where does it say we don't either. Can ya help a brother out?
Do you mean co-redemption involving Mary?
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  #3  
Old Aug 10, '11, 5:01 pm
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Jerome81 Jerome81 is offline
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Default Re: Co Redemption

Point out that the title co-redemtrix does not mean that Mary is equal to Jesus or that she somehow redeemed us, the term co-redemptrx means that mary co-operates with the redeemer in the redemption of mankind, a co-pilot co-operates with the pilot but is not actually flying the plain, mary by her consent to give birth to the Messiah in Luke 1:38, co-operated in the plan of redemption. Iranaeus says, Just as Eve cooperated with the fallen angel in bringing death into the world, so mary cooperated with the angel and brought life into the world. All Christians are called to co-operate in the redemption of mankind, for example:

Paul says:
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. (1 Cor 9:22)

and

16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers. 1 Tim 4:16

Jude says:
And convince some, who doubt; 23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Jude 22-23

James says:
9 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-21

As Paul, Jude and James all show, we are all called to be co-redeemers, but Mary is the co-redeemer par excellence, especially because it was by her co-operation that the redeemer came into the world, even though she knew by the prophecies that her son would be slaughtered (Isaiah 53)
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Old Aug 10, '11, 5:58 pm
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JM3 JM3 is offline
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Default Re: Co Redemption

http://www.opusdei.us/art.php?p=36851

Quote:
Like a door that turns naturally on its hinge, the spirit of the Work "hinges upon ordinary work, professional work carried out in the midst of the world."[7] The hinge of a door is not more important than the door itself, but it occupies a singular position. Just as a hinge by itself would be useless, without the door, similarly a professional occupation, however much it might shine, would have little meaning if it became an end in itself, rather than a means to sanctify all oneís ordinary, family and social life. And at the same time, what good is a door without its hinge? For us, professional work and family and social duties are inseparable elements of our unity of life, absolutely necessary to sanctify ourselves and to sanctify the world from within, shaping human society according to Godís will.[8]

Our professional work can indeed be Godís work, operatio Dei, because we are adopted children of God and we are all identified with Christ. The only-begotten Son has become man to unite us to himself, as the members of a body are united to the head, and he wants to work through each one of us. Truly we are Christís as Christ is Godís.[9] He lives and works in the Christian through grace.
Quote:
Work in our hands, as it was in Christís, must be turned into prayer to God and service to mankind for the co-redemption of the whole human race.
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"Faith is required of you, and a sincere life, not the height of understanding, nor diving deep into the mysteries of God." Thomas a Kempis - The Imitation of Christ

"God will judge us by our fidelity to His Church and our obedience to Peter." Br. Jason Richard, FFV
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  #5  
Old Aug 10, '11, 6:36 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: Co Redemption

I would simply ask the Evangelical to explain 1 Colossians 1:24.
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an explanation.

Evangelicals don't believe that our suffering can be redemptive. Sadly, many Catholics have gotten away from the idea as well. But Paul clearly believed in redemptive suffereing.


-Tim-
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  #6  
Old Aug 10, '11, 6:46 pm
Jim Dandy Jim Dandy is offline
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Default Re: Co Redemption

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church . . ." Colossians 1:24 RSV.

What's lacking in Christ's afflictions? Nothing. But because of the mystical union between Christ and his Church, when we unite our sufferings to Christ's sufferings on the cross, He transforms them and adds them to His own sufferings on behalf of the Church. Read John Paul II's Salvifici Doloris, a Bible study on suffering. Just google it.

It's typical for a Protestant to bombard an opponent with Bible verses. Don't be overwhelmed by that. Many have memorized a few "proof-texts" and sound like biblical scholars, but they aren't. Protestants ignore the scriptures they don't agree with.

Just tell them the Bible has to be read holistically, and it has to be read in the context in which it was written -- in the heart of the living, teaching Catholic Church. The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church's own writings. Only she can tell us what her own words mean.

Here's a link to the little book Where We Got the Bible online. It is also available from Catholic Answers and Amazon.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/...ism/wbible.htm

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
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  #7  
Old Aug 11, '11, 9:31 am
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UnworthyApostle UnworthyApostle is offline
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Default Re: Co Redemption

My fiancee is a Catholic friendly evangelical (I met her as an evangelical.) She had a problem with the doctrine of co-redemptrix until I explained it to her.
The doctrine simply states that Mary PARTICIPATED in the incarnation,ministry of Christ, and suffering of Jesus on the cross. The Latin can be misleading to people, including Catholics. Google Mary as the New Eve to get a better idea of the doctrine.
There is actually a prophecy of scripture which refers to Mary feeling Jesus' suffering at Calvary. "And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed."(Luke 2:35)
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