Redemptive Suffering?

[BluesPicker]

Originally Posted by Kadaffi20

Wow... I am really thankful for all of your answers! Thank you very much guys. Btw. I have a question about victim souls, I am praying that I want to be a victim soul to carry others burdens and sins for the conversion of sinners. Am I doing it right?

Below is a an excellent post found in the Traditional Catholocism section here at CAF. This is serious matter that one should not undertake alone. One really needs a spiritual director to make such an important choice.

BP

Originally Posted by BroMartin

We must always remember that God is infinite, eternal and perfect love, that justice and mercy are attributes of love; justice requires giving and receiving that which one is due, mercy ameliorates (reduces or eliminates) negative consequences due to justice. Mercy, therefore, trumps justice. Jesus' suffering first and foremost was an act of ultimate love for His Father. He accepted and obeyed completely His Father's request to take on the sins of the world and make reparation for them. Making reparation for one's own sins is an act of both love and justice due to God; it is an act of love because it is in obedience to God, it is an act of justice because reparation is owed to God. Making reparation for the sins of another, in unon with Christ, is an act of love and of mercy; it is an act of love both for God and for one's neighbor. It is an act of love for God in that it demonstrates our desire to please God by honoring Him. It is an act of love toward one's neighbor because we give of ourselves for the ultimate good of our neighbor. It is an act of mercy toward our neighbor because we take upon ourselves the just penalties due to another. By making such acts of love, justice and mercy for love of God we follow more closely in the footsteps of Jesus in union with whom we make our sacrifices.

The concept of a victim soul is not that of appeasing an angry and wrathful God. Rather, it is the concept of giving of oneself in love for the benefit of another for love of God. An analogy may be found in human terms alone. We say that a member of the military who dies in battle has made the ultimate sacrifice, the giving of one's life. This sacrifice was willingly and voluntarily made, presumably, out of love for one's country and, therefore, for one's fellow citizens and for the good of the country and its people. This is the spirit behind the concept of victim souls. In a very real sense to some degree all of us are or can be victim souls. However, those who are especially chosen by God receive and accept more, sometimes continuous, opportunities of suffering on behalf of others. The more often and the more thoroughly one offers all of their sufferings in union with those of Jesus for the sake of others, the more one is a victim soul. One does not need to receive the stigmata in order to be a victim soul. Once some time ago my spiritual director said he had become convinced that I was a victim soul (a statement of which I made light by responding that I thought the suffering I bear was probably more as penance for my countless sins).

At least this is my understanding of the concept of victim souls. But there is one more aspect that I believe needs to be clarified. The protestant view appears to be that the passion of Jesus brought about the forgiveness of all our sins and with that forgiveness the waiving of the penalties due to sin. Thus, in the protestant view, there is no need for purgatory. However, I would remind us that when, at the Last Supper, Jesus consecrated the first Eucharist He said that the His blood would be shed that sins might be forgiven. He said nothing about shedding His blood so that penalties or punishment would be removed. Additionally, we need to understand that the temporal penalties due to sin have the purpose not of appeasing God's wrath, but of purifying us by purging from us all taint of sin and sinfulness. It is, in efect, a process of sterilization so that we can enter the "clean room" of God's presence without contaminating it for in the presence of God His holiness and sinfulness cannot coexist, the two are as differenct and incompatible as day and night. It is from this purging of sinfulness that purgatory gets its name and is the difference between hell and purgatory. The former is true and pure punishment. The latter is purification. However, this purification can take place now (in this life) or in purgatory after death. The voluntary suffering that we take on in unin with Christ for the sake of others aids in the purification process wherever it occurs. The merits we earn through our suffering are applied to those for whom we suffer.

In the Peace of Christ,
Brother Martin

[InJesusItrust]

My whole life has been one of suffering. Even when I did not believe in God I suffered much. Now I believe in God. Is my past suffering redemptive for other people or does it not count because I was an atheist? I believe I can handle suffering without losing faith and often pray that I become a victim soul. Has God heard my future prayers and applied such suffering to the past before I believed? Is such a thing possible?

[BluesPicker]

Below is a copy of a few paragraphs from "Spiritual Theology" by Fr. Jordan Aumann. Fr. Aumann's articles and books are available as free download at the link below. Fr. Aumann works are very illuminating.

Chapter Seven of Spiritual Theology by Fr. Jordan Aumann, OP

"Offering Oneself as Victim. It would seem that it is impossible to go further in love of the Cross than to prefer sorrow to pleasure. Nevertheless, there is still another more perfect degree in the love of suffering: the act of offering oneself as a victim of expiation for the sins of the world. At the very outset, we must insist that this sublime act is completely above the ordinary way of grace. It would be a terrible presumption for a beginner or an imperfectly purified soul to place itself in this state. "To be called a victim is easy and it pleases self-love, but truly to be a victim demands a purity, a detachment from creatures, and a heroic abandonment to all kinds of suffering, to humiliation, to ineffable obscurity, that I would consider it either foolish or miraculous if one who is at the beginning of the spiritual life should attempt to do that which the divine Master did not do except by degrees."

The theological basis of offering oneself as a victim of expiation for the salvation of souls or for any other supernatural motive such as reparation for the glory of God, liberating the souls in purgatory, attracting the divine mercy to the Church, the priesthood, one's country, or a particular soul, is the supernatural solidarity established by God among the members of the Mystical Body of Christ, whether actual or potential. Presupposing the solidarity in Christ that is common to all Christians, God selects certain holy souls, and particularly those who have offered themselves knowingly for this work, so that by their merits and sacrifices they may contribute to the application of the merits of the redemption by Christ. A typical example of this can be found in St. Catherine of Siena, whose most ardent desire was to give her life for the Church. "The only cause of my death," said the saint, "is my zeal for the Church of God, which devours and consumes me. Accept, O Lord, the sacrifices of my life for the Mystical Body of thy holy Church." She was also a victim soul for particular individuals. Other examples of victim souls are St. Thérèse of Lisieux, St. Gemma Galgani, and Sister Elizabeth of the Trinity.

In practice, the offering of oneself as a victim for souls should never be permitted except to souls of whom the Holy Spirit asks it with a persistent and irresistible motion of grace. It should be noted that, rather than contributing to the sanctification of the individual (although it does add something), this particular act is ordained to the spiritual benefit of others. The soul that would give itself in this way for the salvation of others must itself be intimately united with God and must have traveled a long way toward its own perfection in charity. It must be a soul well schooled in suffering and even have a thirst for suffering. Under these conditions the spiritual director could prudently permit a soul to make this oblation of self as a victim soul. Then, if God accepts the offering, the soul can become a faithful reproduction of the divine Martyr of Calvary. "

BP

[Kadaffi20]

Originally Posted by etmom

Wow, so when my son died, I should have said "I have it coming, I deserve it?". When he suffered greatly, as a baby, before his death, "he had it coming?" This is NOT my understanding, of redemptive suffering.

A priest wrote that statement about redemptive suffering. Not myself.

[etmom]

Originally Posted by Kadaffi20

A priest wrote that statement about redemptive suffering. Not myself.

Is there a source for the quote? Is it part of a larger statement that might give it more context?

[Kadaffi20]

Originally Posted by BluesPicker

Below is a copy of a few paragraphs from "Spiritual Theology" by Fr. Jordan Aumann. Fr. Aumann's articles and books are available as free download at the link below. Fr. Aumann works are very illuminating.

Chapter Seven of Spiritual Theology by Fr. Jordan Aumann, OP

"Offering Oneself as Victim. It would seem that it is impossible to go further in love of the Cross than to prefer sorrow to pleasure. Nevertheless, there is still another more perfect degree in the love of suffering: the act of offering oneself as a victim of expiation for the sins of the world. At the very outset, we must insist that this sublime act is completely above the ordinary way of grace. It would be a terrible presumption for a beginner or an imperfectly purified soul to place itself in this state. "To be called a victim is easy and it pleases self-love, but truly to be a victim demands a purity, a detachment from creatures, and a heroic abandonment to all kinds of suffering, to humiliation, to ineffable obscurity, that I would consider it either foolish or miraculous if one who is at the beginning of the spiritual life should attempt to do that which the divine Master did not do except by degrees."

The theological basis of offering oneself as a victim of expiation for the salvation of souls or for any other supernatural motive such as reparation for the glory of God, liberating the souls in purgatory, attracting the divine mercy to the Church, the priesthood, one's country, or a particular soul, is the supernatural solidarity established by God among the members of the Mystical Body of Christ, whether actual or potential. Presupposing the solidarity in Christ that is common to all Christians, God selects certain holy souls, and particularly those who have offered themselves knowingly for this work, so that by their merits and sacrifices they may contribute to the application of the merits of the redemption by Christ. A typical example of this can be found in St. Catherine of Siena, whose most ardent desire was to give her life for the Church. "The only cause of my death," said the saint, "is my zeal for the Church of God, which devours and consumes me. Accept, O Lord, the sacrifices of my life for the Mystical Body of thy holy Church." She was also a victim soul for particular individuals. Other examples of victim souls are St. Thérèse of Lisieux, St. Gemma Galgani, and Sister Elizabeth of the Trinity.

In practice, the offering of oneself as a victim for souls should never be permitted except to souls of whom the Holy Spirit asks it with a persistent and irresistible motion of grace. It should be noted that, rather than contributing to the sanctification of the individual (although it does add something), this particular act is ordained to the spiritual benefit of others. The soul that would give itself in this way for the salvation of others must itself be intimately united with God and must have traveled a long way toward its own perfection in charity. It must be a soul well schooled in suffering and even have a thirst for suffering. Under these conditions the spiritual director could prudently permit a soul to make this oblation of self as a victim soul. Then, if God accepts the offering, the soul can become a faithful reproduction of the divine Martyr of Calvary. "

BP

Thank you very much for your posts, really helped me out. Im going to go trough that link and read it more clearly. It seems that that link is going to help me out real well. Again, thank you!

[Holly3278]

You know, I must say that I am thankful for the sufferings that I have because it means I can offer them up for the souls in Purgatory or for the salvation of souls still alive on earth. I love being able to offer up my suffering. It is so nice to know that we don't have to suffer for nothing.

[BluesPicker]

Originally Posted by Kadaffi20

Thank you very much for your posts, really helped me out. Im going to go trough that link and read it more clearly. It seems that that link is going to help me out real well. Again, thank you!

I am glad you find Fr. Aumann's words helpful. I copied his works and I read them from time to time, weekly at least. There are many good priests who have brought forth such Good Fruit in their endeavors as they live their lives in total commitment to God and His Church. We must pray for our clergy because these are bad times when everyone is challenged.

If we find ourselves challenged by the world then we should rejoice because we are not owned by the world. We all need to pray for one another so that our courage doesn't fail least we drop our personal crosses that Christ gave each of us to bear in unison with Him. If we offer our daily sufferings to God then we can say all of our sufferings give Glory to God. It is like the grain of wheat that dies to sprout and produce much grain.

BP

[BluesPicker]

Originally Posted by Holly3278

You know, I must say that I am thankful for the sufferings that I have because it means I can offer them up for the souls in Purgatory or for the salvation of souls still alive on earth. I love being able to offer up my suffering. It is so nice to know that we don't have to suffer for nothing.

I pray that I could have courage like you.

Many Blessings,
BP