Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Jun 14, '12, 11:39 am
Jehannette Jehannette is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 12, 2012
Posts: 320
Religion: Catholic
Default The Council of Florence.

An acquaintance pointed out the following text from the Council of Florence:
Quote:
The holy synod especially condemns and censures, in the book, the assertion which is scandalous, erroneous in the faith and offensive to the ears of the pious faithful, namely: Christ sins daily and has sinned daily from his very beginning, even though he avers that he does not understand this as of Christ our saviour, head of the church, but as referring to his members, which together with Christ the head form the one Christ, as he asserts. Also, the propositions, and ones similar to them, which the synod declares are contained in the articles condemned at the sacred council of Constance, namely the following. Not all the justified faithful are members of Christ, but only the elect, who finally will reign with Christ for ever. The members of Christ, from whom the church is constituted, are taken according to the ineffable foreknowledge of God; and the church is constituted only from those who are called according to his purpose of election. To be a member of Christ, it is not enough to be united with him in the bond of charity, some other union is needed. Also the following...
What do forum members think about the text in bold above? What did the Council fathers mean by it? What's the history behind it? The above text can be found here:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Jun 14, '12, 12:08 pm
DavidFilmer's Avatar
DavidFilmer DavidFilmer is offline
Regular Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2004
Posts: 5,710
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

A lot of people don't realize that the Catholic Church teaches predestination (although the Catholic understanding is not the same as proposed by John Calvin). This Council is an example of this teaching. The topic has been discussed here several times, but I must admit that I do not understand it.
__________________
Popes are designated "the Great" by popular acclaim. Please join me in always referring to Pope St. John Paul-2 as "St. John Paul the Great."

Hooray!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Jun 14, '12, 12:35 pm
MarkThompson MarkThompson is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2010
Posts: 5,330
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

Just to be clear, the sentence you have put in bold, as well as the two before it and several following it, are all propositions that are being condemned by the Council, not asserted by it.
__________________
Qui meditabitur in lege Domini die ac nocte, dabit fructum suum in tempore suo.

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Jun 14, '12, 3:51 pm
steve b steve b is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 27, 2004
Posts: 7,663
Religion: Cradle Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehannette View Post
An acquaintance pointed out the following text from the Council of Florence:


What do forum members think about the text in bold above? What did the Council fathers mean by it? What's the history behind it? The above text can be found here:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm
The sentence in question

to be a member of Christ, it is not enough to be united with him in the bond of charity, some other union is needed.

It seems to me, the points in the paragraph previous to this sentence, give the explanation to this sentence.

The text previous to that said other conditions were needed also. One must also be the elect, in the Church, and are foreknown by God.

That's how I read it.
__________________
To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity.[St Padre Pio]
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Jun 14, '12, 6:37 pm
Jehannette Jehannette is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 12, 2012
Posts: 320
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkThompson View Post
Just to be clear, the sentence you have put in bold, as well as the two before it and several following it, are all propositions that are being condemned by the Council, not asserted by it.
Of course; that's why I italicized the statement before the text which I highlighted in bold.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Jun 14, '12, 6:42 pm
Jehannette Jehannette is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 12, 2012
Posts: 320
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve b View Post
The sentence in question

to be a member of Christ, it is not enough to be united with him in the bond of charity, some other union is needed.

It seems to me, the points in the paragraph previous to this sentence, give the explanation to this sentence.

The text previous to that said other conditions were needed also. One must also be the elect, in the Church, and are foreknown by God.

That's how I read it.
The propositions listed are being condemned.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Jun 14, '12, 6:51 pm
steve b steve b is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 27, 2004
Posts: 7,663
Religion: Cradle Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehannette View Post
The propositions listed are being condemned.
yes, On the condemnation of the book of friar Augustine
__________________
To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity.[St Padre Pio]
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Jun 14, '12, 7:15 pm
Jehannette Jehannette is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 12, 2012
Posts: 320
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve b View Post
yes, On the condemnation of the book of friar Augustine
Great; can you tell me more? Who was our "fair friar" Augustine (not Saint Augustine, of course!) What was he saying that raised the ire of the Council of Florence? Once again, what did the Fathers at that Council mean by the statement in bold? Exactly what were they condemning, and why? I am not "giving you homework" here! Links are, of course, very much appreciated!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Jun 18, '12, 10:21 am
JonathonofOhio JonathonofOhio is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2008
Posts: 701
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehannette View Post
Great; can you tell me more? Who was our "fair friar" Augustine (not Saint Augustine, of course!) What was he saying that raised the ire of the Council of Florence? Once again, what did the Fathers at that Council mean by the statement in bold? Exactly what were they condemning, and why? I am not "giving you homework" here! Links are, of course, very much appreciated!
I searched and can't really find any additional detail on the man. Apparently he wrote a book and the Church publicly declared that it was banned during this council (he was teaching something that was not inline with the Church doctrine). The council was not formed only to address him, the council had other purposes as well.

See: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06111a.htm for some more info.

I'd also like to clarify in case anyone missed it above: the quoted text is the Church quoting the book, and they are saying they disagree with it. Right off the bat, the friar claims Christ sinned and is sinning daily; that is NOT and never was a teaching of the Church, and I cannot understand how on earth he came up with that nonsense-- I'm not surprised it was banned. Being a friar, and teaching and writing a book like that is all he needed to bring the attention of the council since he was representing the Catholic Church. I can't find anymore info, but I'd imagine he either repented or he left the Church.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Jun 18, '12, 10:58 am
catholic1seeks's Avatar
catholic1seeks catholic1seeks is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2008
Posts: 1,555
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehannette View Post
The propositions listed are being condemned.
Well, if it is recognized that the statement "to be a member of Christ, it is not enough to be united with him in the bond of charity, some other union is needed" is being condemned by the council, then... what is the issue?

If a person is bonded to Christ in charity, he is a member of him--his mystical Body--for he has sanctifying grace within his soul. This is the teaching of the Church. And so if the council is condemning the contrary position, then what is the problem?
__________________
Faith, Hope, & Love:
The Greatest of these is
LOVE.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Jun 18, '12, 11:02 am
1ke 1ke is online now
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 24,381
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehannette View Post
An acquaintance pointed out the following text from the Council of Florence:


What do forum members think about the text in bold above? What did the Council fathers mean by it? What's the history behind it? The above text can be found here:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm
This is purely conjecture on my part. But perhaps it is referring to the title of one treastise: "On the charity of Christ towards the elect and his infinite love". Maybe he proposed that there was some difference in the love (charity) of Christ based on elect/non-elect.
__________________
Pax, ke

ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Jun 18, '12, 11:47 am
Jehannette Jehannette is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 12, 2012
Posts: 320
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catholic1seeks View Post
Well, if it is recognized that the statement "to be a member of Christ, it is not enough to be united with him in the bond of charity, some other union is needed" is being condemned by the council, then... what is the issue?

If a person is bonded to Christ in charity, he is a member of him--his mystical Body--for he has sanctifying grace within his soul. This is the teaching of the Church. And so if the council is condemning the contrary position, then what is the problem?
Amen, brother! See this:

http://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=722

In particular, this:

Quote:
It is difficult to disagree with Roman Catholic theologian Edward Schillebeeckx when he concludes that the Council of Florence and Vatican II "are diametrically opposed" on this issue (though he wryly notes that "there are always theologians who are able to reconcile the two statements in the abstract in an unhistorical way with some so-called hermeneutical acrobatics"). Catholic apologists in our own day appeal to the certainty and unchanging character of their own church's teaching, and their arguments often seem compelling to Protestants who are weary of ecclesiastical divisions. But this area of theology provides one example (among others) of how Roman doctrine has indeed changed over the years. Rome used to have a very exclusive doctrine of salvation, but it has become quite inclusive in recent generations.
I emailed the above author with the citation from Florence that is in my OP; he never replied to me.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Jun 18, '12, 4:56 pm
thistle thistle is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 20,067
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehannette View Post
Amen, brother! See this:

http://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=722

In particular, this:



I emailed the above author with the citation from Florence that is in my OP; he never replied to me.
"Rome used to have a very exclusive doctrine of salvation, but it has become quite inclusive in recent generations."

Why would you think that? The Church teachings are clear.

- Baptism is necessary for salvation
- There is no salvation outside the catholic Church

What has changed from before?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Jun 18, '12, 5:01 pm
LionHeart777's Avatar
LionHeart777 LionHeart777 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2008
Posts: 1,266
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The Council of Florence.

In response to the author of the article from the OPC, it is up to the Church to define and explain, it's own Doctrines (most especially not the job of the OPC or individual members thereof.) If I am not mistaken, there seems to have been legitimate development of Doctrine in the teaching of "Extra Ecclesia nulla salus." He is mistaking "change" with legitimate development of Doctrine.

If I'm not mistaken, too rigid of an interpretation of "Extra Ecclesia nulla salus" is the heresy of Feenyism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism)
__________________
Please come and visit my Detroit Catholic Examiner page.

Last edited by LionHeart777; Jun 18, '12 at 5:19 pm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8349Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: svid2
5088CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: eschator83
4408Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3858SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3675Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: DesertSister62
3268Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3244Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3218Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: memphian
3085For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 3:27 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.