Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorKnight
Ok, my bad. I got the chance to listen to Mr. Staples conversion story again and the verse is not Hebrews anything...
It was Romans 5:12 (and maybe 13?) "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned-- 13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law."
Ok so back to my origional question with the new info... what is our explaination here. In context this is talking about origional sin.
Thanks again folks and God Bless  |
The passage you are looking at is the standard one that the Catholic Church
interprets as defining Original sin. It is not sufficient, though, on it's own to prove every person has sin -- nor is Original sin, an actual sin in each person.
See CCC: 404, last sentence.
The word "all" is not strong enough to prove every single person. It must, however, prove that a representative of the "whole" group mentioned did, in fact, sin.
Original sin, however, does NOT mean according to Catholic Teaching that every person sins by "imitation" of Adam because of his example. That alternate explanation is offered from the Eastern Schizm, and can be traced back to St. Augustine's time. The so called "Pelagian" heresy -- not to be confused with "semi-pelagians" who aren't heretics as far as I know.
There are people who are incapable of sin; for example the mentally retarded, or a child who has just formed a brain -- but dies before they are able to perform any act. As it is Said of Esau and Jacob -- Roman 9:11 -- "They had not yet been born, they had done nothing
good or evil."
That passage, alone, is proof that action is not what original sin is about. The following sentence is about the future "The elder is to be the servant of the Younger. So it is that we read, I have been a friend to Jacob, and an enemy to Esau."
In that passage, we are entering the arena of predestination -- and it is here that the Protestants can be shown to be the most in error because of their ignorance of the contexts which St. Paul is quoting.
It is important to grasp that the ancient mindset of Tribes, makes Esau already the nation of Edom; and Jacob, already, the nation of Israel.
Roman 9:
From this perspective, the sin Paul speaks about is the community sin of these nations -- not necessarily that of Adam;
Genesis 25:23 "two
NATIONS in your womb"
I also caution you, there are two aspects of Esau and Jacob -- they are both individual people capable of Sin, and nations who are a community culpable of Sin -- And Be careful, Esau is mostly in the right -- not the wrong.
Jacob, being the younger son -- served Esau; THEN when the father's blessing of the eldest Son was given to Jacob; while the Father lived, only, a short period -- Esau served Jacob.
cf: Joshua 24:4 -- consequence of Jacob's sin;
Deute 23:7-8 Esau was NOT banned from the promised land.
2Samu 8:14 Edom allowed David to have a military presence in their land.
2King 3:9 allies.
1King 9:26; 11:
17
The hating of Esau is not his damnation; but merely his rank next to his brother Jacob. It isn't until the nation Edom (with reason, for what Israel did to them) murdered Israel, that God punishes them completely.
Note also my point Concerning community sin: St. John 1:8 is in the plural; NOT the singular. Even John does not single out every individual regarding the committing of sin -- but he does prove that there is no basis for a racist position of the sinless vs. the sinner nations or church.
There are a handful of passages that I would point you to, in order that you become very familiar with them; They are routinely used in discussions about original sin;
Psalm 50/51 -- [ Going into the purpose, this is a psalm of David .. when Nathan the
prophet ... about Bathsheba. ]
RKV.
"Have mercy on me O' God, as you are ever rich in mercy, ..."
...
" For indeed, I was
born into sin;
Guilt was with me already when my
mother conceived me."
What the psalm shows is that the parent can damage the child. Original sin is transmitted by Propagation (reproduction.)
Note, the mother is considered the point of weakness.
The passage is tied by a
unique Greek word to a passage about Jacob; The passage in Genesis is overlooked in apologetics; Viz: Genesis 30:37-40;
In that passage, notice two things -- Jacob is purposely (and succeeding) in damaging the sheep -- and it is again the mother who is susceptible to damage vv. 38.
Another place to see this idea clearly of the parent(s) sin damaging the child, also look here:
1Cori 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband:
else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
St. Augustine, in railing against the Pelagian heresy doesn't appear to grasp the significance of this issue completely -- and I attribute this to him not having enough time to study it before his work was made public. However, NOT all sheep were damaged by Jacob's effect upon the mother.
St. Augustine is the one, however, who records that the Churches -- ALL of them, east and west, shared a Tradition; this Tradition is possibly the strongest proof to the idea of the EFFECT of original sin on infants. All churches East and West at the time of Augustine, included an
Exorcism in their Baptism of infants. It is Tradition, and not Scripture -- which proves infants are in danger of hell through the power of the Devil.
See also: Genesis 6:2 and 6:5; Sons of God is sometimes used of the demons. The passage may refer to rulers taking women, or to the pollution of sexual union by sin and demons. It is a double meaning passage.
Personally, I believe in Original Sin -- because the church Teaches it.
I don't allow that Someone outside the Church, use a scripture alone argument -- and demand that I accept original sin from Scripture without solid proof. If the Church is the source of the Doctrine, it can't be argued that the Church is wrong concerning an exception; PERIOD.
Without going into detail, until you ask, actually read these passages and think about what they actually say; be a lawyer, and consider the words *CAREFULLY* and what groups are being addressed; compare and contrast them.
Roman 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: { P s a l m 14 : 1-3, 52 :... } -- but it is the Fool, not all people...
Roman 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: { P s a l m 5 : 9 }
Roman 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: { P s a l m 10 : 7 }
Roman 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed {innocent} blood: { P r o v e 1 : 16 }
Roman 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: { I s a i a 59 : 7 - 8 }
Roman 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Roman 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. { P s a l m 36 : 1 }
Best wishes.
Your brother in Christ,
--Andrew.
Mary and Hebrews 5:??
. To cross the line is iniquity or trans-gression -- the word means that the person made a decision to base their morality on something besides the "moral" line.
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