Successful Latin Ordinary Form Experiment! - Page 2

jwinch2 · #16 Aug 20, '12, 9:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

So what if I wish all OF masses were this way? Does that mean I'm going to march into an OF and force everyone to start speaking Latin?

While I am happy to have the OF in English, I do not wish that all Masses were that way because that would deny those who find spiritual fulfillment in something else that which they need to thrive. I have been very careful throughout my time here in CAF and in my general life as a Christian to respect the spiritual needs of those who prefer Latin and the EF of the Mass. I have repeatedly stated that I hope that all who desire it, have access to it, so that they are as fulfilled by the Mass as they can be. In addition, I have spoken out against situations where the faithful who desire the EF of the Mass are not having their needs met, and have participated in activities to improve that situation.

So let us be clear. Its not about you walking in to force others to speak Latin, its about the idea that you would wish to deny others what they need spiritually or simply what is their own preference in favor of your own. You are fully aware that many Catholics who are doing their best to be faithful to the Church prefer having the Mass in their native language. Yet, despite this knowledge, you wish that all OF Masses were in Latin. This would, in essence, deny them the form of the Mass which they find the most spiritually fulfilling. Even when I tried to give you out and a chance to walk it back by suggesting that you didn't really mean that, you doubled down on your statement by saying "so what".

Remarks like that give me the impression that you don't care about the spiritual needs of others, including my own. Knowing you somewhat, I do not believe that is an accurate portrayal of your feelings. But, that is what comes across to me when you make remarks like that, and then, follow up on them as you did. Since I happen to be one of those people who are spiritually fulfilled by having Mass in my native language, and who believes 100% that I would not be Catholic to begin with if Mass were said in Latin, the suggestion that you would want to take from me something which meets my spiritual needs and replace it with something which does not, bothers me.

I love chant, love the pipe organ, love incense, love beautiful and classic vestments, love classic Church architecture, love sung prayer, etc. but please, give it to me in English.

And, for the record, I am happy that things went so well for him as well. I hope that all Catholics who prefer to have the OF of the Mass in Latin will be able to have access to it, and that these efforts will help to bring that about.

jwinch2 · #17 Aug 20, '12, 9:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

Bishops now allow all-vernacular Masses in other than the national language. There are no restrictions using other approved translations. But it seems like somewhere in the liturgy there should be some commonness.

And I don't see people burying their heads in a Latin missal any more than in an English-only or Spanish-only Mass. Maybe some just like the mystery behind the Mass without trying to understand every word. Just saying.

You might be right, some may feel exactly that way but I can't say for sure. I know that if they exist, I'm not one of them. Regardless, I pray you always have access to the form of the Mass which best meets your needs. All I want is to have the same.

Peace,

OraLabora · #18 Aug 21, '12, 3:24 am

To answer a few questions, it was versus populum (the altar arrangement would not work otherwise, IMHO; even though the original high altar and reredos is still there, there's a table altar ahead of it, though still in the sanctuary).

Yes, several people came up afterwards to thank us.

Keep in mind it is a French community; and Latin is not as much of an obstacle for us as for some other linguistic groups.

I'm realistic and I don't think it will become the norm. But what I'd like to see is, say, once a month, or perhaps weekly at some major church (the cathedral or one of the basilicas perhaps), a Latin OF Mass offered. If Traditionalists can have a weekly EF, why not a weekly or monthly OF the way it was intended?

SeekNFind · #19 Aug 21, '12, 4:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

Awesome! I wish all OF masses were like this.

Behold, the future hybrid mass.

Can you go a little more into "all its glory"? I'm serious, which part of the OF mass shone the most in Latin?

I think this would be perfect: chant the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei and do the rest in the local language. I've been enjoying this style of Mass at a different parish this summer and I'm going to miss it. I feel like I'm too "new" to suggest such a thing at my home parish but it would be nice if one of the Sunday masses was this kind of Mass.

malphono · #20 Aug 21, '12, 4:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OraLabora

I'm realistic and I don't think it will become the norm. But what I'd like to see is, say, once a month, or perhaps weekly at some major church (the cathedral or one of the basilicas perhaps), a Latin OF Mass offered.

I wouldn't go that far, but I am interested to see if anything ever comes of PP Benedict XVI's "reform of the reform" project. Personally, I would have no major objection to some organic rubrical (not structural) changes in the Usus Antiquior, something along the lines of the 1965 "interim Missal" (but certainly not anything like the 1967 aberration).

TrueLight · #21 Aug 21, '12, 5:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by curlycool89

Yes, you are entitled to it. And those of us who don't prefer it are similarly entitled to our own opinion. And the Church allows both.

Okay. And did I say in my couple of sentences that you weren't?

I think you and jwinch are bringing baggage from other threads and decided to jump on me. Since I didn't come in this thread to debate, I'm out of here.

Ora congrats again.

MissRose73 · #22 Aug 21, '12, 6:51 am

I attended 2 Assumption BVM holy day Masses each celebrated by a different priest, and both were done in the Ordinary Form in Latin with the exception of the readings, the homily, and the intercessions with times where the priest has his back to the people. I did not find it hard to know some of the responses and follow along as I occasionally attend Extraordinary Form Masses. I found the Masses to be reverently done, and wished my diocese offered them as I traveled to the shrine in a group setting.

codefro · #23 Aug 21, '12, 6:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwinch2

When I traveled to Brazil, I heard Mass in Portuguese and had no problem with it. Heck, I was in Brazil after all. However, when I am in America I prefer to hear Mass in a language that I speak and understand without burying my head in a book through the entire thing. I would rather be lost on the rare occasion that I travel, then every week.

Suggesting that it is only proper to have the Mass in Latin is the same to me as suggesting it is only proper to have the Bible, Papal Encyclicals, or the Catechism in Latin. I understand the importance for Church documents in having a language which does not change for official use in teachings, encyclicals, etc. But, I believe the Church needs to meet the people where they are, not where they aren't. In addition, I understand your comment about reverence in the liturgy, but that, in my opinion, is not about the language. It is a far deeper issue. Go to a Anglican Use Mass sometime and tell me that they don't have a reverent liturgy. Go to a Benedictine Monastery when they celebrate the OF and see the same thing. If you do, it becomes apparent that you can have chant or other beautiful reverent music, incense, beautiful vestments, sung prayer, meaty homilies, etc. and have the whole thing in English. Its not the language which equals reverence, its the manner in which it is celebrated.

I would have no problem in seeing an increase in the frequency and availability of the EF of the Mass if there is high demand for it. And I have no problem with seeing an increase in the OF of the Mass in Latin, if there is demand for it. However, I again just ask that others give myself, and the many others who feel the same way that I do, the same courtesy. And I reject the idea that reverence=Latin.

Funny you mention Anglican Use. I have been almost weekly attending a new Anglican Ordinariate in my county. I have been discerning if i wish to register with theor parish While it is beautiful, I am still leaning towards just attending a Latin EF Mass

**ProVobis** · #24 Aug 21, '12, 8:14 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by curlycool89

Instead people just space off into their own private prayers as if they weren't even there.

You can't assume that. Actuosa participatio covers a lot of area but being there as a witness to what's going on seems to be a worthwhile thing on a Sunday morning, I would think.

jwinch2 · #25 Aug 21, '12, 8:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

Okay. And did I say in my couple of sentences that you weren't?

I think you and jwinch are bringing baggage from other threads and decided to jump on me. Since I didn't come in this thread to debate, I'm out of here.

I can't speak for others, but that is not an accurate portrayal of my response. I was responding to your post and had nothing else on my mind when I clicked on the link to this thread other than seeing what Michel had to say.

As I stated above, I do not believe that you really wish to deny many, including me, the mass that they prefer. But, that was the impression given, to me at least, particularly in your following up with the "so what if I want all OF Masses in Latin..." statement. If all OF Masses were in Latin, there would be zero OF Masses in the vernacular. I find you wishing that were so to be problematic, particularly in the light of the support that many on here who do not prefer the EF of the Mass themselves, to those who do.

That is the genesis of my response, nothing more.

jwinch2 · #26 Aug 21, '12, 8:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by codefro

Funny you mention Anglican Use. I have been almost weekly attending a new Anglican Ordinariate in my county. I have been discerning if i wish to register with theor parish While it is beautiful, I am still leaning towards just attending a Latin EF Mass

I've been to one Anglican Use Mass, which was beautiful. I didn't get the complete treatment because on the day we went, there was as substitute priest who was not trained in that particular rite. What took place was a sort of hybrid of the OF and the Anglican Use. It was still quite reverent and beautiful and I enjoyed how they did communion with the priest giving the body and the deacon giving the blood right down the line. It took a bit longer, but the music was so beautiful that I really didn't mind at all.

codefro · #27 Aug 21, '12, 8:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwinch2

I've been to one Anglican Use Mass, which was beautiful. I didn't get the complete treatment because on the day we went, there was as substitute priest who was not trained in that particular rite. What took place was a sort of hybrid of the OF and the Anglican Use. It was still quite reverent and beautiful and I enjoyed how they did communion with the priest giving the body and the deacon giving the blood right down the line. It took a bit longer, but the music was so beautiful that I really didn't mind at all.

Their music is beautiful. I am grateful for their beautiful singers.

curlycool89 · #28 Aug 21, '12, 8:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

Okay. And did I say in my couple of sentences that you weren't?

Not at all. I just wanted to write it for clarification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

You can't assume that. Actuosa participatio covers a lot of area but being there as a witness to what's going on seems to be a worthwhile thing on a Sunday morning, I would think.

Then they're like the audience at a production. Or they're people who happen to be in the same room as a priest who happens to be saying Mass.