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  #76  
Old Aug 20, '11, 8:33 pm
EvanRoberts EvanRoberts is offline
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Default Re: Youcat: What do you think about the Recall?

Manualman claims that he has found an example of an authoritative papal statement that endorses YOUCAT’s teaching that the Bible’s authors were “dominated by the errors of their time.” I invite all of the members of this forum to look with me and see if Manualman’s example really supports YOUCAT’s position.

Please note that Manualman equates use of “figurative language” or “terms which were commonly used at the time” to “being dominated by the errors of their time.” But these are two entirely different things. King David compared God to “a shepherd” using “figurative language” that has lost much of its meaning for those of us not fortunate enough to live in the country. But use of this figurative language and somewhat archaic terminology is not “erroneous.” I asked Manualman to give this forum an example of an authoritative magisterial teaching which states that the authors of the Bible were “dominated by the ERRORS of their time” and this he has failed to do. Moreover, “literal” is not the same as “inerrant.” I have read the YOUCAT critique at www.youcatrecall.com and it doesn’t defend literalism. It defends inerrancy. Why do critics of the petition keep confusing the two?

It is painful to read contributors to this forum assert that there are errors in the Bible in flat contradiction to all of the Fathers, Doctors, Popes and Councils in their authoritative teaching, especially when the example given—the apparent contradiction between the accounts of Judas’s death in Matthew and Acts—can be resolved with a little bit of effort. Compare the views of YOUCAT’s defenders in this forum with the view of all of the Fathers and Doctors, as articulated so beautifully in the following statement by St. Augustine:
It seems to me that the most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred books: that is to say that the men by whom the Scripture has been given to us, and committed to writing, did put down in these books anything false. . . . If you once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement . . . , there will not be left a single sentence of those books which, if appearing to any one difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away, as a statement in which, intentionally, . . . the author declared what was not true (Letters of St. Augustine 28.3).
With regard to YOUCAT’s teaching on the incompleteness of creation, here is YOUCAT’s statement:
God created the world to be good, but it is not yet complete. In violent upheavals and painful processes it is being shaped and moved toward its final perfection. That may be a better way to classify what the Church calls physical evil, for example, a birth defect, or a natural catastrophe. Moral evils, in contrast, come about through the misuse of freedom in the world. (34)
Pnewton says:
the first statement says God created (past tense) the world good. This is what the literal Scripture says. It also says it is not (present tense) yet complete. It does not say that God created the world incomplete (past tense).
But Pnewton does not quote YOUCAT correctly. YOUCAT says, “God created the world TO BE good” NOT “God created the world good.” No universal catechism in the history of the Church has ever taught that God created the world TO BE good and linked that proposition to incompleteness and physical evil like birth defects. St. Thomas Aquinas summed up the traditional teaching of all of the Fathers and Doctors in the Summa as follows:
the first perfection is the completeness of the universe at its first founding, and this is what is ascribed to the seventh day. http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1073.htm
This is the exact opposite of what YOUCAT teaches—and YOUCAT’s critics are absolutely correct when they quote the Roman Catechism, the only catechism in history mandated by a sitting Ecumenical Council and presided over by a canonized saint, as summing up the teaching of all of the Fathers on the seventh day:
The seventh day was called the “Sabbath.” because [God], having finished and completed the creation of the world, rested from all his work which he had done (emphasis added).
According to this common teaching, the world was created very good, complete, and harmonious, free from every kind of deformity, such as birth defects, prior to the Original Sin.

Again and again, people try to dismiss YOUCAT’s critics for being “so few,” without dealing with their arguments—or while dealing with them inadequately. The scoffers should read about Eusebius of Doryleum who stood up alone as a layman and publically corrected the Patriarch of Constantinople when he preached against the title “Theotokos” http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05622a.htm They should read the historian Eusebius’s account of Pope Liberius’s interview with the Emperor Constantius when the emperor railed at him, saying, “Will you defend Athanasius against the world?” and the Pope replied, “Were there not but three who defied the King of Babylon?” It seems as if YOUCAT’s critics may have a little bit of the true spirit of St. Athanasius in them, and if they do, they are going to hold fast to the Truth regardless of how many people mock and deride them.

Please remember that it was a tiny minority among the priests and laity who pleaded with Pope Paul VI to uphold the Church’s constant teaching on marriage and not to allow love-and-life-destroying birth control, and it was because this tiny minority demonstrated that the Church’s teaching on marriage had been maintained by all of the Fathers, Doctors and Popes from the time of the Apostles that Pope Paul VI overruled the majority of his expert advisors and published Humanae vitae.
  #77  
Old Aug 20, '11, 8:55 pm
highcalling highcalling is offline
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Default Re: Youcat: What do you think about the Recall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanRoberts View Post
Manualman claims that he has found an example of an authoritative papal statement that endorses YOUCAT’s teaching that the Bible’s authors were “dominated by the errors of their time.” I invite all of the members of this forum to look with me and see if Manualman’s example really supports YOUCAT’s position.

Please note that Manualman equates use of “figurative language” or “terms which were commonly used at the time” to “being dominated by the errors of their time.” But these are two entirely different things. King David compared God to “a shepherd” using “figurative language” that has lost much of its meaning for those of us not fortunate enough to live in the country. But use of this figurative language and somewhat archaic terminology is not “erroneous.” I asked Manualman to give this forum an example of an authoritative magisterial teaching which states that the authors of the Bible were “dominated by the ERRORS of their time” and this he has failed to do. Moreover, “literal” is not the same as “inerrant.” I have read the YOUCAT critique at www.youcatrecall.com and it doesn’t defend literalism. It defends inerrancy. Why do critics of the petition keep confusing the two?

It is painful to read contributors to this forum assert that there are errors in the Bible in flat contradiction to all of the Fathers, Doctors, Popes and Councils in their authoritative teaching, especially when the example given—the apparent contradiction between the accounts of Judas’s death in Matthew and Acts—can be resolved with a little bit of effort. Compare the views of YOUCAT’s defenders in this forum with the view of all of the Fathers and Doctors, as articulated so beautifully in the following statement by St. Augustine:
It seems to me that the most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred books: that is to say that the men by whom the Scripture has been given to us, and committed to writing, did put down in these books anything false. . . . If you once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement . . . , there will not be left a single sentence of those books which, if appearing to any one difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away, as a statement in which, intentionally, . . . the author declared what was not true (Letters of St. Augustine 28.3).
Wow! Wow! Wow! Bravo, EvanRoberts!

I should not personally have been tempted to enter into the "literal" debate. I will purpose not to do so in this thread again since it is not an issue of the Recall initiative. I invite all others here to recognise that inerrancy is the issue and join me in staying away from discussion of literalism.

I also invite all orthodox Catholics to affirm that they believe in the complete goodness of God's Creation before the Original Sin. I think it is important to know where everyone stands on this point of orthodoxy.

This is sound logic you bring. This is Holy Tradition you are giving us.

Thank you!

hc
  #78  
Old Aug 20, '11, 9:14 pm
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pnewton pnewton is offline
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Default Re: Youcat: What do you think about the Recall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanRoberts View Post
But Pnewton does not quote YOUCAT correctly.
I have not quoted Youcat at all. I have only quoted what others have said that Youcat says. If Youcat has been misrepresented by its detractors, I can not help that. As I have said, I will not address the topic of Youcat here, as I do not have a copy and am only addressing the appropriateness of this recall petition. I also question the motives and credentials of those petitioners. We are not talking about, as you suggested a small group of priests. We are not even talking about theologians who seem to think they know better that the Church and the Holy Father. If you think a lone layman has the wherewithall to stand against the Church, then feel free to join them. I do not. I think it is also important that others know that this is what is happening. The OP made an appeal to join in this petition. It is only reasonable that others have the right to appeal that others do not. Then, everyone can decide for themselves.

In doing this, I ask that they check not just the site, but who is behind the site.

As to the particulars on Youcat, I do not agree with you on the issues and I believe I am in line with Holy Tradition. So, I guess we can both jump in and beg the question as to what is Holy Tradition and what is most orthodox. I prefer simply to follow humbly the authority we have within the Church. My pride is too great sometimes, but not so great I think I have the right to override that authority.
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  #79  
Old Aug 20, '11, 11:33 pm
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Sirach2 Sirach2 is offline
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Default Re: Youcat: What do you think about the Recall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan Roberts
With regard to YOUCAT’s teaching on the incompleteness of creation, here is YOUCAT’s statement:
God created the world to be good, but it is not yet complete. In violent upheavals and painful processes it is being shaped and moved toward its final perfection. That may be a better way to classify what the Church calls physical evil, for example, a birth defect, or a natural catastrophe. Moral evils, in contrast, come about through the misuse of freedom in the world. (34)
How is this any different from the CCC? Would the sophists who support the Youcat recall also demand that the Church recall the CCC?
302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created "in a state of journeying" (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call "divine providence" the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection...
Not only do you avoid addressing the arguments in rebuttal to your claims, but you persist in spinning your own web by alleging the Church is teaching error. How about answering the objections with doctrinal facts rather than private opinion?
"YOUCAT creates the impression that the Sacred authors were simpletons whose writings contain errors, or that only those things needed for salvation are presented in Scripture without error."
That is purely a matter of private opinion, since "impression" is not fact and you fail to show that the words literally distort or misrepresent the truth. The burden of proof always lies with the objectors.

Quote:
It is painful to read contributors to this forum assert that there are errors in the Bible in flat contradiction to all of the Fathers, Doctors, Popes and Councils in their authoritative teaching, especially when the example given—the apparent contradiction between the accounts of Judas’s death in Matthew and Acts—can be resolved with a little bit of effort.
Not a single word was written to say that "apparent" contradictions in scripture prove inerrancy. None. The statement was, "...despite apparent contradictions, scripture DOES teach us what is for our salvation, Divinely interpreted by God's lawful Authority, the Magisterium."

If you cannot correctly read what I wrote and relay it here in truthfulness, how can anyone possibly believe that you comprehend correctly anything written in the Youcat? Just a lot of hot air by a handful of nitpickers, IMO. Let us know when the Vatican succombs to the "recall" demands.
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May the thoughts of my heart and the words of my mouth find favor before you,
O Lord, that I may always be pleasing to Thee. Psalm 19:14
  #80  
Old Aug 21, '11, 1:01 am
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Sirach2 Sirach2 is offline
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Default Re: Youcat: What do you think about the Recall?

Quote:
It is lay and clergy banding together and RESPECTFULLY petitioning the Holy Father to recall it as defective.
Whenever an auto is discovered as defective, the owner brings it to the dealer to replace the defective part. They do not scrap the entire auto. As is true of all important documents, including our own US Constitution, there may be necessary adjustments afterwards through incremental amendments or a second edition.

The original CCC (with over 700 pages of text) issued a second edition with the corrections listed here. Not taking time to read them all, I pulled the last one for an example. You'll note the minor tweaking to enhance the meaning.

Quote:
2834 The sentence which reads:
"Even when we have done our work, the food we receive is still a gift from our Father; it is good to ask him for it with thanksgiving, as Christian families do when saying grace at meals."

This phrase is to be changed to read:
Even when we have done our work, the food we receive is still a gift from our Father; it is good to ask him for it and to thank him, as Christian families do when saying grace at meals.
The fact is, the Youcat is here to stay.
I would expect that a work of this importance for our youth will be similarly tweaked to make more clear its teachings. Doctrinally, it has received the Imprimi Potest.
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May the thoughts of my heart and the words of my mouth find favor before you,
O Lord, that I may always be pleasing to Thee. Psalm 19:14
  #81  
Old Aug 21, '11, 1:18 am
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pnewton pnewton is offline
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Default Re: Youcat: What do you think about the Recall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirach2 View Post
I would expect that a work of this importance for our youth will be similarly tweaked to make more clear its teachings. Doctrinally, it has received the Imprimi Potest.
It has? Then what it the issue? Seems settled to me.
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  #82  
Old Aug 21, '11, 1:25 am
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KarenElissa KarenElissa is offline
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Default Re: Youcat: What do you think about the Recall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
It has? Then what it the issue? Seems settled to me.
Yes.

Quote:
Nihil Obstat, March 3, 2010
Austrian Bishops' Conference Imprimatur, Austrian Bishops' Conference with the approval of the German Bishops' Conference, November 29, 2010; the Swiss Bishops' Conference, December 6, 2010 with the prior approval of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Congregation for the Clergy, and the Pontifical Council for the Laity.
So not even one Bishop, but three different Bishops' Conferences, those are an awful lot of people teaching "errors".
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  #83  
Old Aug 21, '11, 4:49 am
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Sirach2 Sirach2 is offline
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Default Re: Youcat: What do you think about the Recall?

Thanks, Karen.

I have the Original Edition of the CCC, and it, too, carried the official Imprimi's. The fact that there is a "second edition" does not indicate error; it merely offers greater clarity in refining some of the manners of expression.

It was interesting to read Mark Shea's comments here on his website. He won't even provide the recall link.

Quote:
...have trouble locating who these people are. That smells. Strike one.

This "ministry", as I discover from clicking on the link, is one of these peculiar hybrids which obsesses over evolution and wants to read out of the faith theistic evolutionists and people who don't have a big issue with the compatibility of evolution and Catholic teaching. It rather dishonestly quotes Cardinal Ratzinger ... Second strike.

Robert Sungenis and his readers are enthusiastically joining in the condemnation with remarks like, "Let's face it, the majority of the hierarchy (including Pope Benedict XVI) are doing all they can get away with to destroy the faith." Strike three.

More and more, there seem to be "lay apostolates" whose mission seems to be to "save" the Church from the Magisterium and replace their guidance with the dogmatisms of sectarians. On the whole, if it's choice between the teachers ordained by Christ and Some Guy with a Website, I think I will stick with the bishops and the Pope.
Me, too, Mark. Unsubscribing and leaving the dogmatists to rah-rah and high-five themselves to an empty audience consisting of their own wreck-orators.
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May the thoughts of my heart and the words of my mouth find favor before you,
O Lord, that I may always be pleasing to Thee. Psalm 19:14

Last edited by Sirach2; Aug 21, '11 at 5:02 am.
  #84  
Old Aug 21, '11, 8:03 am
maryjk maryjk is offline
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Default Re: Youcat: What do you think about the Recall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
I have not quoted Youcat at all. I have only quoted what others have said that Youcat says. If Youcat has been misrepresented by its detractors, I can not help that. As I have said, I will not address the topic of Youcat here, as I do not have a copy and am only addressing the appropriateness of this recall petition.
I do have a YOUCAT sitting in front of me. And he is picking and choosing pieces of answers to prove his point.

He has an agenda.
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  #85  
Old Aug 21, '11, 9:48 am
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Little One0307 Little One0307 is offline
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Default Re: Youcat: What do you think about the Recall?

Sirach2 and Maryjk,

Is the Youcat available online like the CCC is in the Vatican website? I have been looking on the internet for it and have not come across it. I would think that one of these days it should be made availalbe on the internet seeing it is a public catechism. If any of you two actually find a link or a website that has the text of the youth catechism, please do not hesitate to send it to me in either in PM form or post in this thread. I would greatly appreciate it.

God bless you two as well as the other posters and readers of this thread.
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