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  #106  
Old Jun 20, '12, 9:20 am
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nickybr38 nickybr38 is offline
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Default Re: If your devotion to Christ was half your devotion to Mary, you wouldn't need your devotion to Mary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuntym View Post
+JMJ+

*sigh* OK, read again the Jesus Prayer posted by losh14:
"Lord Jesus Christ, Only Son of the Living God, Savior of all mankind, have mercy on me, a sinner."
What would happen if you (and I quote from my own post) "exclude or minimize Mary instead of acknowledging her role in our salvation" in practicing this devotion?

Then you are not worshiping the true Jesus Christ. Because what is the role of Mary in our salvation that pertains to this devotion? She is the Theotokos, the Mother of God, whose definition had to be formalized in the Council of Ephesus to combat the heresy of Nestorianism.

Remember Jesus had to be incarnated for Him to save us (at least as God had conceived of the plan).

So when you properly practice the Jesus Prayer, you are acknowledging Mary's role in salvation. To minimize the role of Mary while practicing the Jesus Prayer will have you in the danger of worshiping a false god, or at the very least saddening the God who is very grateful to Mary.
I really don't understand you...

When I say that prayer I think only of Jesus. I do not disrespect Mary but I don't give her a thought either. I can't minimize her role because I'm not even acknowledging her role when I say that prayer. My sole focus in that prayer is Jesus and Jesus alone... (although I suppose in the back of my mind I know and acknowledge that she was the vessel used to bring Him to us but I'm not consciously thinking about that).

How does Mary get involved in that moment in that particular prayer? Except in a very abstract, subconscious way?

Ah... I'm thinking I won't ever understand this unless God Himself decides I need to.
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  #107  
Old Jun 20, '12, 9:32 am
mangy dog mangy dog is offline
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Default Re: If your devotion to Christ was half your devotion to Mary, you wouldn't need your devotion to Mary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by losh14 View Post
My faith is in Christ in His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and my focus is on Him first. The term is partly inspired by Boudreaux's "The Born-Again Catholic" but also by a program under the New Evangelization at the Diocese of Milwaukee:

http://www.evangelicalcatholic.com/e...-in-the-church



There's a self-selection bias in the present thread that overstates my attention paid to dreams. Last night kiddo was awake or fussy from 11 pm to 4 am - no sleep, no dreams. I actually keep a deepening devotion to the Holy Trinity.



More and more I hear this, and it's comforting to hear. It would certainly be a different matter for one who keeps a devotion to Mary but goes no deeper in Christ.


Your "deepening devotion to the Holy Trinity" will bring you to a fuller understanding of the Theotokos for reasons I don't think you are quite open to right at this moment.

All in due time.
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  #108  
Old Jun 20, '12, 11:42 am
losh14 losh14 is offline
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Default Re: If your devotion to Christ was half your devotion to Mary, you wouldn't need your devotion to Mary.

We're approaching devotion from different mindsets from one another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuntym View Post
"Lord Jesus Christ, Only Son of the Living God, Savior of all mankind, have mercy on me, a sinner."
What would happen if you (and I quote from my own post) "exclude or minimize Mary instead of acknowledging her role in our salvation" in practicing this devotion?

Then you are not worshiping the true Jesus Christ. Because what is the role of Mary in our salvation that pertains to this devotion? She is the Theotokos, the Mother of God, whose definition had to be formalized in the Council of Ephesus to combat the heresy of Nestorianism.
The intent of the Jesus Prayer is to petition for Mercy and give Christ Glory. That's it. It's communication between myself and the Lord without saying anything else about Mary who carried Him, Paul who preached Him, Peter who defended Him, etc. Christ remains Lord whether we mention any other facet of His Life or not in the devotion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuntym View Post
Remember Jesus had to be incarnated for Him to save us (at least as God had conceived of the plan).

So when you properly practice the Jesus Prayer, you are acknowledging Mary's role in salvation. To minimize the role of Mary while practicing the Jesus Prayer will have you in the danger of worshiping a false god, or at the very least saddening the God who is very grateful to Mary.
Trying to understand your line of thought, would that mean I should say a Hail Mary alongside the Jesus Prayer so that I don't pray in error? Or include Mary in the address ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Incarnate of Mary")
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  #109  
Old Jun 20, '12, 11:43 am
losh14 losh14 is offline
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Default Re: If your devotion to Christ was half your devotion to Mary, you wouldn't need your devotion to Mary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangy dog View Post
Your "deepening devotion to the Holy Trinity" will bring you to a fuller understanding of the Theotokos for reasons I don't think you are quite open to right at this moment.
I can't dismiss that as a possibility. His Grace abounds, and does so often in unexpected ways.
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  #110  
Old Jun 20, '12, 12:00 pm
losh14 losh14 is offline
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Default Re: If your devotion to Christ was half your devotion to Mary, you wouldn't need your devotion to Mary.

I didn't mention before that I agree if I were to pray with words to the effect of denying the Incarnation that would be heresy - and in particular it would be Nestorianism if I were to say that Christ had two distinct natures and that the two never aligned or that one passed away on the Cross and the other is the only one present in Heaven ... etc.

That said, there is nothing theologically errant about praying:
"Lord Jesus Christ, Only Son of the Living God, Savior of all mankind, have mercy on me, a sinner."
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickybr38 View Post
When I say that prayer I think only of Jesus. I do not disrespect Mary but I don't give her a thought either. I can't minimize her role because I'm not even acknowledging her role when I say that prayer. My sole focus in that prayer is Jesus and Jesus alone... (although I suppose in the back of my mind I know and acknowledge that she was the vessel used to bring Him to us but I'm not consciously thinking about that).
This makes me think a bit of a friend, who is still trying to find his way. When he prays, he's so focused on correctly addressing his prayer that he doesn't miss a thing:

"Lord Jesus Christ, Savior, into whom we are baptized, from Whom we we receive the Spirit, in Whom we know the Father, Whom we received in the Flesh from Mary, who prays alongside us. We know You from Scripture and through Your Church and You are always in our hearts and our minds... bless us O Lord and these Thy gifts...."

Scrupulous? To a fault. The point of the mealtime prayer is to thank God for His Providence, that's all. There's a good deal of subtlety in that thanking (that we rely upon God for all things, that our reliance shows our trust in Him), but we don't need to get into that, just thank Him for the meal and eat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickybr38 View Post
Ah... I'm thinking I won't ever understand this unless God Himself decides I need to.
All things by His Grace. I think of the story (mentioned elsewhere in another thread of mine) of the priest who was lukewarm, was in a car accident and on the way to the hospital said a "Hail Mary". During surgery he died on the table, had a vision of the Throne of Judgement, Christ condemning him for his lukewarmness, and Mary claiming him for her own. When he was revived, he had a renewed vigor for Mary and for the Church.

On the one hand, I take all visions with some skepticism ("Test all spirits"), but on the other if the only way for Christ to reach this lukewarm priest is through Mary because the priest was predisposed towards Mary (praying a "Hail Mary" instead of an "Our Father", for example), then it makes sense this is how the Lord would work. In that way it's a bit of a reversal from Lk 16:31, but I'd hope the Lord would be more merciful than Abraham (and indeed the New Covenant more brilliantly shows Mercy than the Old).

If Christ truly wanted to condemn this priest, though, and Mary's will is in perfect accordance with the Lord's will, then Mary would not have asked for him to have a second chance, would she? So here, at least, Christ worked through Mary to save the priest.
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  #111  
Old Jun 20, '12, 5:15 pm
FCEGM FCEGM is offline
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Default Re: If your devotion to Christ was half your devotion to Mary, you wouldn't need your devotion to Mary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by losh14 View Post
. . .I interpret the passage (also found in the Catechism) to mean imitation of Mary. When I think worship, I think the Mass, which does not include a form of devotion to Mary other than imitation (and then, without calling it so) and co-prayer (which Mary shares with the Pope and all saints).
Please read Marialus Cultus carefully; that phrase particularly refers to devotion to Mary, not "just" imitation of her, and further mentions prayers to her within the Mass - including the Mass for the dead.

Quote:
I do not comprehend "Totus Tuus". In my mind and heart, Christ has won me. I belong to no other.
You should, then, consider that the late Holy Father wrote Redemptoris Missio, Veritatis Splendor, Dives in Misericordia, and Redemptor Hominis. He knew something you don't in your (as you yourself call it) "obsession" against Marian devotion. Such an obsession would be understandable in a Fundamentalist, but is offensive in a Catholic.

I'm leaving the discussion, but do so with one more suggestion for you: Catholic poetry often best captures the essence of what the Church's theology presents to us. Fr. Gerard Manley Hopkin's lovely poem, "The Virgin Mary Compared to the Air We Breath", might be a springboard for better comprehension of Mary and her role in your life.


http://www.bartleby.com/122/37.html
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  #112  
Old Jun 20, '12, 11:15 pm
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nuntym nuntym is offline
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Default Re: If your devotion to Christ was half your devotion to Mary, you wouldn't need your devotion to Mary.

+JMJ+
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickybr38 View Post
I really don't understand you...

When I say that prayer I think only of Jesus. I do not disrespect Mary but I don't give her a thought either. I can't minimize her role because I'm not even acknowledging her role when I say that prayer. My sole focus in that prayer is Jesus and Jesus alone... (although I suppose in the back of my mind I know and acknowledge that she was the vessel used to bring Him to us but I'm not consciously thinking about that).

How does Mary get involved in that moment in that particular prayer? Except in a very abstract, subconscious way?

Ah... I'm thinking I won't ever understand this unless God Himself decides I need to.
You do not need to involve Mary there, at that moment of prayer. Some other time, even just once a day, let us say at morning prayer or evening prayer, will do. Let us say, just one Haily Mary. Just be grateful to God and Mary in that one small prayer per day.

I think that would also cover losh14's posts.

I mean, seriously, you do not have to make it any more complicated, guys. If you are doing it already, fine. But if not, then just try it and see.
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  #113  
Old Jun 21, '12, 9:59 am
losh14 losh14 is offline
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Default Re: If your devotion to Christ was half your devotion to Mary, you wouldn't need your devotion to Mary.

Given all that's afoot in the world - that we're on the start of the Fortnight and have far greater battles - I'd like to bring this thread to a close, if for only a time being. I feel guilty taking resources from where they could be put to better use.

I will take everything written here prayerfully. I also apologize if I have scandalized anyone, whether they answer or read later, and intend to confess such.

I hope you have not found scandal but rather a renewed passion for our shared Faith in Our Lord, and that passion ignites a zeal in you for the battles to come against our common enemy.

Going forward, I will simply trust in Christ and if He leads me to His mother to be led more deeply into Him, His Will be done.
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