Why would the Catholic Church put together a Book that disproves thier own doctrine? - Page 15

**JonNC** · #**211** Jul 6, '12, 6:40 am

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Originally Posted by saveusfromhell

luther didn't even know what he believed himself

In the course of his life, Martin Luther made contradictory statements about Mary's immaculate conception. For example, in 1532 Luther says that Mary was conceived in sin, in 1544 he says: 'God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, for she has conceived and borne the Lord Jesus.'[19] Elsewhere, "All seed except Mary was vitiated [by original sin]."[20] When concentrating specifically on Mary herself as the Mother of God, Luther acknowledges God's singular action in bringing her into the world, but in making general comments about the universality of human sinfulness, he includes her among all the rest of humanity.

Mother Mary, like us, was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her, sanctified and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood, but not with sinful flesh and blood. The Holy Spirit permitted the Virgin Mary to remain a true, natural human being of flesh and blood, just as we. However, he warded off sin from her flesh and blood so that she became the mother of a pure child, not poisoned by sin as we are. For in that moment when she conceived, she was a holy mother filled with the Holy Spirit and her fruit is a holy pure fruit, at once God and truly man, in one person."
http://www.google.ie/url?q=http://en..._T4WJmJzrSR-qw

Not inconsistent at all. We would all agree that her sinlessness is a miracle, an act of God for His purpose of salvation. It is quite possible, as scripture is not explicit, that this miracle could have taken place at the visitation of the Angel, when he spoke the greeting to her. I have no particular problem with the IC, but as a Lutheran I can consider other possibilities, since the IC is not an article of faith.

Jon

Lochias · #**212** Jul 6, '12, 6:45 am

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Originally Posted by JonNC

Yes, from a Catholic POV. The CC having a POV is fine and good, but frankly I need more than her say-so about the issue.

If it's Catholic doctrine and Catholic tradition that you're having a problem with, you should look more closely at the Catholic POV. One of the things I love about the RCC (and I'm not saying it's exclusive to her) is that she doesn't hide a thing. Doctrines and traditions can be followed back openly through history, and insofar as my own seeking has gone, I've yet to find anything that would prove the RCC wrong.

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This assumes two things: 1) that they broke from Rome, and not the other way around, and 2) that the authority of the pope is what the CC claims it is. When I read Nicea, I see canon 6 saying that the Bishop of Rome's authority is equal is jurisdiction to the Bishop of Alexandria's in his. So, Tradition and early Church teaching and structure are a central issue here.

And this is a central issue for me.

I believe the central issue is less with Tradition and early Church teaching than it is with which translations of Nicea that a particular individual chooses to go with. This link might explain more (it's a Catholic source, but still draws upon history and translation and logic to make its point): http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/C...SixthCanon.htm

Again, in my studies, I have not found anything suitable to derail the RCC's argument, historically or otherwise.

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Purgation is itself an extension of God's mercy and justice. If one can say this happens at the moment of death, no additional place/state necessary, then I can believe Purgatory.

But the issue is which Tradition do I believe,since Tradition does not agree?

Of course Tradition agrees. Even Jewish tradition agrees, and Jesus was, if anything, a good Jew. He was very clear in condemning those practices which needed to go, but he never said a word against the Jewish customs of praying for the dead.

Honestly, it sounds more to me like you're hung up over the semantics of Purgatory more than anything else. It certainly happens at the moment of death, if needed; it simply seems as though you have issues with it happening within any sort of time frame beyond "instantaneous". Am I correct? If so, why?

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Jon
EDIT: BTW, I honor and respect your faith in the matter, and your approach here. thanks.

You are most welcome. I enjoy talking with you, and it's always good to see you pop up in one of the threads here.

**JonNC** · #**213** Jul 6, '12, 7:01 am

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=Lochias;9490177]If it's Catholic doctrine and Catholic tradition that you're having a problem with, you should look more closely at the Catholic POV. One of the things I love about the RCC (and I'm not saying it's exclusive to her) is that she doesn't hide a thing. Doctrines and traditions can be followed back openly through history, and insofar as my own seeking has gone, I've yet to find anything that would prove the RCC wrong.

Not exactly, since I cannot at this point seeing myself joining an Orthodox Church for the same reasons. IOW, the question remains for me which is true?

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I believe the central issue is less with Tradition and early Church teaching than it is with which translations of Nicea that a particular individual chooses to go with. This link might explain more (it's a Catholic source, but still draws upon history and translation and logic to make its point): http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/C...SixthCanon.htm

I'll check it out.

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Again, in my studies, I have not found anything suitable to derail the RCC's argument, historically or otherwise.

Have you studied Orthodox views on the issue?
The Lutheran view is expressed in the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope. It does have some polemics whichI don't believe apply today, but the basic issues are there.

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Of course Tradition agrees. Even Jewish tradition agrees, and Jesus was, if anything, a good Jew. He was very clear in condemning those practices which needed to go, but he never said a word against the Jewish customs of praying for the dead.

What I meant was that Orthodox Tradition and Catholic Tradition disagree on a range of issues, and both claim that they are the one true Church.

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Honestly, it sounds more to me like you're hung up over the semantics of Purgatory more than anything else. It certainly happens at the moment of death, if needed; it simply seems as though you have issues with it happening within any sort of time frame beyond "instantaneous". Am I correct? If so, why?

Yes. I think this, along with the abuses surrounding Purgatory that existed at the time, was the major objections of the Lutheran reformers, as well, if one reads the confessions about it.

Jon

saveusfromhell · #**214** Jul 6, '12, 7:06 am

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Originally Posted by JonNC

This is not my understanding of ex cathedra. If a pope declares something via infallibility ex cathedra, it has to be correct, by definition. My understanding is that if a pope made this declaration, it would not, could not be ex cathedra, in addition to being wrong. If your claim is that a pope can make a claim ex cathedra and be wrong, then the very idea of infallibility ex cathedra would be false.

I'm hope a Catholic will correct me if I misunderstand.
Jon

okay i'll correct myself a pope can claim to be speaking excathedra but can't be unless all conditions are met. i did see the error in what my post was implying but it was too late to chang
maybe now you can address the rest of that post.

Lochias · #**215** Jul 6, '12, 7:15 am

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Originally Posted by JonNC

Not exactly, since I cannot at this point seeing myself joining an Orthodox Church for the same reasons. IOW, the question remains for me which is true?

Ah, I see. Well, I'll be praying for you in this regard, when and if you decide to make a choice.

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I'll check it out.

Jolly good.

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Have you studied Orthodox views on the issue?
The Lutheran view is expressed in the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope. It does have some polemics which I don't believe apply today, but the basic issues are there.

I have studied the Orthodox views on the matter, yes. I'll look into the Treatise, as my knowledge of the Lutheran view is a little more shaky.

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What I meant was that Orthodox Tradition and Catholic Tradition disagree on a range of issues, and both claim that they are the one true Church.

Ah. Well, all I can offer is the history and logic that lead toward the RCC, at least for me. Those conclusions came, for me, before I began to dive into the deeper reaches of my Faith, for what that's worth. I "studied myself" deeper in, as some folks say on here.

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Yes. I think this, along with the abuses surrounding Purgatory that existed at the time, was the major objections of the Lutheran reformers, as well, if one reads the confessions about it.

I'll take a look at the confessions, and see what they have to say.

**JonNC** · #**216** Jul 6, '12, 7:51 am

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=Lochias;9490289] Ah, I see. Well, I'll be praying for you in this regard, when and if you decide to make a choice.

Thanks. As you can see, mine is not a polemic against the CC.

BTW, a couple of years ago the USCCB and Lutherans authored this dialogue statement, in part about Purgatory. It is loooong, but very interesting.

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-tea...ernal-life.cfm
Jon

saveusfromhell · #**217** Jul 6, '12, 7:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by saveusfromhell

okay i'll correct myself a pope can claim to be speaking excathedra but can't be unless all conditions are met. i did see the error in what my post was implying but it was too late to chang
maybe now you can address the rest of that post.

actually jonc you can diregard the last line of the post, going to have to stop posting on night shift i get too irritable

**JonNC** · #**218** Jul 6, '12, 8:21 am

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Originally Posted by saveusfromhell

actually jonc you can diregard the last line of the post, going to have to stop posting on night shift i get too irritable

Understood.

Jon

Isaiah45_9 · #**219** Jul 6, '12, 8:39 am

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Originally Posted by JonNC

Thanks. As you can see, mine is not a polemic against the CC.

BTW, a couple of years ago the USCCB and Lutherans authored this dialogue statement, in part about Purgatory. It is loooong, but very interesting.

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-tea...ernal-life.cfm
Jon

You were not kidding, lol.

I didn't know about it, thanks for the link.

Peace,

Jose

Lochias · #**220** Jul 6, '12, 8:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonNC

Thanks. As you can see, mine is not a polemic against the CC.

BTW, a couple of years ago the USCCB and Lutherans authored this dialogue statement, in part about Purgatory. It is loooong, but very interesting.

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-tea...ernal-life.cfm

Jon

Cool, I'll give it a read later tonight.