Praying to Mary and the Saints - Page 3

ephesians4 · #31 Feb 21, '13, 8:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlamg

I only pray to God. I don't try to communicate with anyone but God.

Same here - God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit being the same, and the only possible recipients for my prayers personally, there is no praying to Mary, there is no praying to saints.

I will in church if we entreat Mary etc. participate in honouring her, singing etc., and I have said Hail Mary in the past, but I would never personally pray to Mary, I would feel like that was Mariolatry since prayer is a primary part of my worship.

SonSearcher · #32 Feb 21, '13, 8:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ephesians4

Same here - God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit being the same, and the only possible recipients for my prayers personally, there is no praying to Mary, there is no praying to saints.

I will in church if we entreat Mary etc. participate in honouring her, singing etc., and I have said Hail Mary in the past, but I would never personally pray to Mary, I would feel like that was Mariolatry since prayer is a primary part of my worship.

But you do not pray to her. If you are doing that then it is wrong and poor catechesis. When you ask her to intercede for you, to pray on your behalf that is no different than asking a human on earth to pray for you to the Lord our God three Holy persons. Further how else would she know to pray for you if you don't communicate that? She is not God. You must ask her to pray for you.
Do not discount what she can do in your life by just ignoring her and the Catholic Tradition concerning her. She is a powerful intercessor and her life in Jesus Christ is one of the most powerful examples if not the most true example of Christian Discipleship. She stayed at the foot of the cross, she was given to us by God himself, Jesus the Second person of the blessed Holy Trinity, "Behold your Mother."
She comes to earth to remind us to pray she comes because Jesus can't the next time Jesus comes back the world will be judged living and dead and the old world as we know it will fold up like a scroll.

godisgood77 · #33 Feb 21, '13, 9:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

Many of us, especially of an older age, practice what is called "Catholic SHORTHAND'.

In illustration 2, despite the words, "place grant my wife and I" without the 'pray to God almighty' of the first part, we Catholics understand that the part of 'pray to God Almighty that He GRANT to us is always understood.

We don't always say it but we always think and pray it.
God can grant THROUGH people, but what is granted is ALWAYS through God.

That's how I understood in my old 'Baltimore Catechism' days and my mother, at 83, understands it that way as well.

Thanks... I hope that it is as you say and know that it often times is. I'm sensitive to it in group prayer especially when it comes to my children. Many young people do not have the frame of reference to understand the meaning and we are largely a "see one, do one, teach one" culture. I've also had some challenges with my spouse as we have discussed this topic and it became evident that the later prayer example was meant literally.

I think words are important and should be treated more carefully... not to measure someone's intent (because that it not our job), but to understand how we influence others.

De_Montfort · #34 Feb 21, '13, 10:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonSearcher

But you do not pray to her. If you are doing that then it is wrong and poor catechesis. .

Bad catechesis to pray to Mary?!

From the CCC
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40

SonSearcher · #35 Feb 21, '13, 10:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by De_Montfort

Bad catechesis to pray to Mary?!

From the CCC
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40

I completely agree....... the way the post read it seemed that their definition of to Mary or to the Saints was implied in a different way than what is stated in the CCC. So I was attempting to clarify.

**Tantum ergo** · #36 Feb 21, '13, 11:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by godisgood77

Thanks... I hope that it is as you say and know that it often times is. I'm sensitive to it in group prayer especially when it comes to my children. Many young people do not have the frame of reference to understand the meaning and we are largely a "see one, do one, teach one" culture. I've also had some challenges with my spouse as we have discussed this topic and it became evident that the later prayer example was meant literally.

I think words are important and should be treated more carefully... not to measure someone's intent (because that it not our job), but to understand how we influence others.

I totally agree that words are indeed important. Thing is, the protestant understanding of the word 'prayer' is a limited and modern understanding. We need to be careful that we don't appear to be agreeing with their definition and understanding, because we aren't.

Same with 'worship' which is 'worth ship' and, prior to say the mid 19th century protestant, was understood by all Christians to refer to GENERAL 'worth'. (This is why judges in Great Brittain today are addressed as 'your worship'). By the original definition, we find Mary and the saints to be WORTHY, but we do not 'worship' them as God.

Again, we need to be careful that in communicating respectfully with our protestant friends, we do not appear to be either ignoring the original definitions of those and other words, or that we are actually agreeing that their 'modern' definitions are complete and correct.

Again, it is the Protestant understanding that needs to correct itself.

If you try to tell Protestants that Catholics do not worship saints, BE ASSURED that they will delight in finding copies of various literary works in which the CORRECT and original definitions of 'prayer', 'worship' etc., are used in reference to Mary and the Saints, so they can gleefully accuse us of lying.

So don't TRY to say that Catholics do not worship Mary or don't pray to her. Say rather that according to the actual and true historical word origins, Catholics think Mary is a WORTHY CREATURE, and that they indeed PRAY because PRAYER is a form of communication not limited to God. Stress that finding somebody a 'worthy person' does not mean that person is considered as god, or that even Shakespeare 'prayed' to his fellow men and women, and insist that words be used as they truly ARE and not on modern truncated and limited versions.

ajecphotos · #37 Feb 21, '13, 11:28 am

To me, it is praying to Mary, the Saints etc to ask them to intercede for me to God. I also prayer to Our Blessed mother to tell her how much i love her. I am sure she loves to hear from people who love her and ask for help in the world as she is such a wonderful healer of peoples souls through the wonder of Our Lord.

ephesians4 · #38 Feb 21, '13, 12:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonSearcher

But you do not pray to her. If you are doing that then it is wrong and poor catechesis. When you ask her to intercede for you, to pray on your behalf that is no different than asking a human on earth to pray for you to the Lord our God three Holy persons. Further how else would she know to pray for you if you don't communicate that? She is not God. You must ask her to pray for you.
Do not discount what she can do in your life by just ignoring her and the Catholic Tradition concerning her. She is a powerful intercessor and her life in Jesus Christ is one of the most powerful examples if not the most true example of Christian Discipleship. She stayed at the foot of the cross, she was given to us by God himself, Jesus the Second person of the blessed Holy Trinity, "Behold your Mother."
She comes to earth to remind us to pray she comes because Jesus can't the next time Jesus comes back the world will be judged living and dead and the old world as we know it will fold up like a scroll.

I find it difficult to countenance anything that feels like it might be worship of any other than God, and some of the entreatment of Mary and the Saints does feel like that for me. I must therefore respectfully stay at my end of the spectrum for now. However what I will do is look into it more, because the way you have phrased this interests me.

I don't seek to judge others for this, or decry the teachings of the church for it, and there is no doubt in my mind that Mary is blessed and worthy of every honour - but quietly I am a little more staid with it than some people with what doesn't feel quite right to me.

SonSearcher · #39 Feb 21, '13, 1:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ephesians4

I find it difficult to countenance anything that feels like it might be worship of any other than God, and some of the entreatment of Mary and the Saints does feel like that for me. I must therefore respectfully stay at my end of the spectrum for now. However what I will do is look into it more, because the way you have phrased this interests me.

I don't seek to judge others for this, or decry the teachings of the church for it, and there is no doubt in my mind that Mary is blessed and worthy of every honour - but quietly I am a little more staid with it than some people with what doesn't feel quite right to me.

Understood. Check out the book Total Devotion to Mary by St Louis de Montfort, or City of God for a deeper understanding of Mary's amazing role in our Church.

ephesians4 · #40 Feb 21, '13, 4:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonSearcher

Understood. Check out the book Total Devotion to Mary by St Louis de Montfort, or City of God for a deeper understanding of Mary's amazing role in our Church.

Thank you very much, just ordered a copy

I'm always happy when someone takes the time to suggest a good read on the matter.

SonSearcher · #41 Feb 21, '13, 4:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ephesians4

Thank you very much, just ordered a copy

I'm always happy when someone takes the time to suggest a good read on the matter.

The first half of the book is numbered passages written by Montfort, some meditations on Mary and her importance, role and how she loved. The second half is the process of consecrating yourself to Jesus through Mary. With the idea that God gave himself completely to Mary in all his human frailty, Montfort makes a very convincing argument that one quick way to increased holiness is total devotion to Mary. I hope you enjoy.

Of course I just realized maybe you bought the second book. That on the other hand is a gigantic book numbering thousands of pages on Mary's life. I have not completely finished that one just yet.

Either way.....enjoy.

duneman · #42 Feb 21, '13, 4:29 pm

thanks,, that helped me too

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

If you carefully search the origin of the word 'pray' you will see that until very RECENT times it was understood NOT to refer to 'communication to God alone" but rather to a communication to ANY person.

So praying to or with Mary and the saints is just like praying to or with any other person--it means 'to ask'.

Read Shakespeare: the word "prithee' is a contraction of PRAY THEE. . .and it is used to all sorts of people, certainly not God alone.

Now if by prayer you mean 'worship offered to God', NO Catholic would 'pray' in that fashion to anybody BUT God. We certainly pray our prayers of worship only to Him.'

But to us, and to ALL Christians historically, 'prayer' was not directly solely to God, and so prayers of petition etc. not directed as worship could be given to anybody.

St. Paul, for example, prays to his friends that they listen to the gospel. When he says this, he certainly doesn't mean that he WORSHIPS his friends!

If you turned to your friend and asked him to join you in prayer, your asking him is ITSELF A PRAYER (to him), it is a REQUEST of him, and until relatively recently you would have said to him, "I pray you, friend, to join me in asking God for help'.

THAT is the kind of 'prayer' we as Catholics have to saints.

It is not our fault that nonCatholics, who have CHANGED THE MEANING OF THE WORD PRAY(ER), get confused. It is not WE who need to accept that new and truncated definition, but nonCatholics who need to understand that their modern narrowing of the word has led to their confusion.

God bless, I pray you, friend, that you will hear.