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  #16  
Old Jun 8, '12, 3:52 pm
wasserfall wasserfall is offline
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Default Re: Would the SSPX and the FSSP reunite after the reconciliation?

I agree that the organizations would not merge.
However I would not be surprised to see some individual priests move.
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  #17  
Old Jun 8, '12, 3:56 pm
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TrueLight TrueLight is offline
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Default Re: Would the SSPX and the FSSP reunite after the reconciliation?

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Originally Posted by wasserfall View Post
I agree that the organizations would not merge.
However I would not be surprised to see some individual priests move.
In both directions?
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  #18  
Old Jun 8, '12, 4:32 pm
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JReducation JReducation is offline
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Default Re: Would the SSPX and the FSSP reunite after the reconciliation?

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Originally Posted by T More View Post
When/if Rome reaches an agreement with the SSPX, would there be a need for both orders to exist? Would the FSSP then "re-join" the SSPX? How could the landscape potentially look afterwards between the SSPX and the other traditional orders?
That is canonically impossible, because of their structures. First, you must remember that neither is an order. The FSSP and the SSPX are secular Catholic priests, not consecrated religious. That's the first impairment. The Church has no authority to merge secular organizations

The second obstacle is their different infrastructures. The FSSP is strictly a society of secular priests. The SSPX is a much larger organization. It has a society of secular priests, religious brothers, religious sisters, a third order, oblates and religious communities associated to it. As a structure, it's really a church, not just a society of apostolic life.

To merge would mean that the FSSP would have to be absorbed into the SSPX, because it's the smaller of the two.

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Originally Posted by TrueLight View Post
I know some will disagree with me, but my personal opinion has always been "Why give a prelature to one and not the other"?
The FSSP cannot be a prelature for two reasons.

1. It is incorporated into the Church as a society for secular clerics. It does not have the infrastructure necessary to be a prelature.

2. It does not have bishops and is not allowed to have bishops. A prelature must have its own bishops or accept a bishop imposed by the pope as its prelate.

Quote:
I think in the early days, there was talk of a "Traditional Catholic" prelature type of thing. Don't quote me on this. Why should some be restricted, while some are not?
It is not a restriction. It's a matter of charisms. If that were the case, then the Franciscans and Salesians should be prelatures. Both are bigger, wealthier and have many more bishops and laity than the SSPX. Between the Salesians and Franciscans they comprise 20% of the religious and laity in the Catholic Church. That's a big number and they are very different from other institutes.

Quote:
Even now, the FSSP is not allowed to set up shop in NYC. So why not give them a prelature too? Or why not have one big prelature for Ecclesia Dei groups?
You can't have one big prelature, because each ED institute has its own charism. A prelature is a body with one charism, not a merger of several charisms. There is also a juridical problem. There can only be one prelate. Who would that be? From which institute would you pick him or would you bring in a bishop from outside so as not to cause hurt feelings? Some of the ED institutes are religious. They cannot be part of a prelature, because they would lose their autonomy.

Quote:
It almost seems like reward for disobedience. I guess the prodigal son parable applies here.
My guess is that if there is any tension, it will remain.
Actually, it's the perfect solution. It achieves two things. It give the Church the needed input of the SSPX, which is a good thing. Secondly, it gives the Church power to regulate that input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueLight View Post
In both directions?
No. Priests cannot move from FSSP to SSPX and the other way around without the permission and agreement of the two superiors general. It's not just a matter of picking up your bag and moving. A priest must be incardinated into a diocese, a society or a religious community. Once incardinated, he needs the permission of his superior to ask to be received elsewhere. He needs the permission of the other superior to be admitted. Finally, the transfer must be approved by the Holy See.

In the past, SSPX clergy were received into Catholic institutes, because the SSPX was not a canonically erected Catholic community. Once it is regularized, it will have a canonical status and that means that it will also have rights. One of those rights is the right of its superior not to allow anyone to leave.

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Br. JR, FFV
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  #19  
Old Jun 8, '12, 5:19 pm
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TrueLight TrueLight is offline
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Default Re: Would the SSPX and the FSSP reunite after the reconciliation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
That is canonically impossible, because of their structures. First, you must remember that neither is an order. The FSSP and the SSPX are secular Catholic priests, not consecrated religious. That's the first impairment. The Church has no authority to merge secular organizations

The second obstacle is their different infrastructures. The FSSP is strictly a society of secular priests. The SSPX is a much larger organization. It has a society of secular priests, religious brothers, religious sisters, a third order, oblates and religious communities associated to it. As a structure, it's really a church, not just a society of apostolic life.

To merge would mean that the FSSP would have to be absorbed into the SSPX, because it's the smaller of the two.



The FSSP cannot be a prelature for two reasons.

1. It is incorporated into the Church as a society for secular clerics. It does not have the infrastructure necessary to be a prelature.

2. It does not have bishops and is not allowed to have bishops. A prelature must have its own bishops or accept a bishop imposed by the pope as its prelate.



It is not a restriction. It's a matter of charisms. If that were the case, then the Franciscans and Salesians should be prelatures. Both are bigger, wealthier and have many more bishops and laity than the SSPX. Between the Salesians and Franciscans they comprise 20% of the religious and laity in the Catholic Church. That's a big number and they are very different from other institutes.



You can't have one big prelature, because each ED institute has its own charism. A prelature is a body with one charism, not a merger of several charisms. There is also a juridical problem. There can only be one prelate. Who would that be? From which institute would you pick him or would you bring in a bishop from outside so as not to cause hurt feelings? Some of the ED institutes are religious. They cannot be part of a prelature, because they would lose their autonomy.



Actually, it's the perfect solution. It achieves two things. It give the Church the needed input of the SSPX, which is a good thing. Secondly, it gives the Church power to regulate that input.



No. Priests cannot move from FSSP to SSPX and the other way around without the permission and agreement of the two superiors general. It's not just a matter of picking up your bag and moving. A priest must be incardinated into a diocese, a society or a religious community. Once incardinated, he needs the permission of his superior to ask to be received elsewhere. He needs the permission of the other superior to be admitted. Finally, the transfer must be approved by the Holy See.

In the past, SSPX clergy were received into Catholic institutes, because the SSPX was not a canonically erected Catholic community. Once it is regularized, it will have a canonical status and that means that it will also have rights. One of those rights is the right of its superior not to allow anyone to leave.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV
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  #20  
Old Jun 8, '12, 5:24 pm
BertBlyleven BertBlyleven is offline
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Default Re: Would the SSPX and the FSSP reunite after the reconciliation?

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Originally Posted by runningdude View Post
If the SSPX is regularized, I don't think that they will recombine, but not out of animosity. They would simply remain separate groups because both would have a unique charism that would be lost in a merger.
That would be the PC response.

In reality priests of the FSSP and SSPX have identical charisms. The structure and goals of the FSSP is essentially the same as the SSPX, the only difference being the large lay and religious influence now in the SSPX (which wasn't as much the case in 1988). As far as priests are concerned, their structure, formation, values ("charism") are the same.

Keep in mind both societies do not view themselves as having a charism that other secular or diocesan priests need not. Their view of the priesthood is not viewed as "our way" but "the way," and both are deeply committed to this. Archbishop Levebvre first started his seminary not to say the old Mass but to re-reform priestly formation, and has always been the main goal of both groups.

That being said, no, they will continue to remain separate, but I wouldn't be surprised if certain FSSP or SSPX parishes move or combine. Often they aren't far from each other.
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  #21  
Old Jun 8, '12, 5:36 pm
Mike30 Mike30 is offline
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Default Re: Would the SSPX and the FSSP reunite after the reconciliation?

I would be extremely surprised it that would or even could happen.
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  #22  
Old Jun 8, '12, 5:37 pm
wasserfall wasserfall is offline
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Default Re: Would the SSPX and the FSSP reunite after the reconciliation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
No. Priests cannot move from FSSP to SSPX and the other way around without the permission and agreement of the two superiors general.
I didn't mean in any way to imply that a priest could just walk out of one rectory and into another.

But as a practical matter, priests who wish to transfer will generally receive permission to do so, just as currently diocesan priests join the FSSP and sometimes FSSP priests leave to become diocesan priests.
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  #23  
Old Jun 8, '12, 5:38 pm
wasserfall wasserfall is offline
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Default Re: Would the SSPX and the FSSP reunite after the reconciliation?

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Originally Posted by Mike30 View Post
I would be extremely surprised it that would or even could happen.
Of course it could happen, but it won't.
(or at least, probably won't)
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  #24  
Old Jun 8, '12, 5:49 pm
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YoungTradCath YoungTradCath is offline
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Default Re: Would the SSPX and the FSSP reunite after the reconciliation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BertBlyleven View Post
That would be the PC response.

In reality priests of the FSSP and SSPX have identical charisms. The structure and goals of the FSSP is essentially the same as the SSPX, the only difference being the large lay and religious influence now in the SSPX (which wasn't as much the case in 1988). As far as priests are concerned, their structure, formation, values ("charism") are the same.

Keep in mind both societies do not view themselves as having a charism that other secular or diocesan priests need not. Their view of the priesthood is not viewed as "our way" but "the way," and both are deeply committed to this. Archbishop Levebvre first started his seminary not to say the old Mass but to re-reform priestly formation, and has always been the main goal of both groups.

That being said, no, they will continue to remain separate, but I wouldn't be surprised if certain FSSP or SSPX parishes move or combine. Often they aren't far from each other.
I agree that their charisms are practically identical. The ICRSS, on the other hand, has an arguably very different charism--one that I quite enjoy --but the SSPX and FSSP are quite similar as regards charism.

As I understand it, Archbishop Lefebvre felt that the only way to re-stabilize the Church was through a wholesale revamping of priestly formation.
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  #25  
Old Jun 8, '12, 6:02 pm
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JReducation JReducation is offline
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Default Re: Would the SSPX and the FSSP reunite after the reconciliation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BertBlyleven View Post
That would be the PC response.

In reality priests of the FSSP and SSPX have identical charisms. The structure and goals of the FSSP is essentially the same as the SSPX, the only difference being the large lay and religious influence now in the SSPX (which wasn't as much the case in 1988). As far as priests are concerned, their structure, formation, values ("charism") are the same.
They're actually not, because the SSPX priests are part of a larger SSPX family. The FSSP would find itself being absorbed.

The way that they operate from day to day is also different.

SSPX and FSSP are to each other what Carmelites and Discalced Carmelites are to each other. Part of the same tree, but very different branches, each with its unique personality.

Quote:
I wouldn't be surprised if certain FSSP or SSPX parishes move or combine. Often they aren't far from each other.
That's unlikely. If they follow the model of Opus Dei, only the local bishop can merge parishes. If they follow the model of the military ordinariate, as Bishop Fellay suggests, they can't merge parishes, because the parishes that the FSSP administers belong to the local diocese and the ones that the SSPX priests administer would belong to the SSPX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasserfall View Post
I didn't mean in any way to imply that a priest could just walk out of one rectory and into another.

But as a practical matter, priests who wish to transfer will generally receive permission to do so, just as currently diocesan priests join the FSSP and sometimes FSSP priests leave to become diocesan priests.
This is treated differently in Canon Law. The canon that govern transfers between institutes are very different from those that govern transfers between an institute and a diocese.

It's much easier to go between an institute and a dioceses than institute to institute. When you move from a diocese to an institute, there is no profession to the diocese. Diocesan priests do not make profession. When you move from the institute to the diocese, there is only one profession involved, the one that you made to the institute, which can be dispensed by the superior general of the institute.

When you move between institutes, if the professions are not of the same canonical status and dignity, then it has to be approved by the Holy See. You can go up in dignity without the Holy See's approval, but you can't go downward without the approval.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV
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