My girlfriend is in Opus Dei

[daisybee]

Mattingly23,

Thank you for your response. Would you ever consider dedicating a period of prayer, maybe a novena to a favorite saint, to request specific, divine guidance in your decision-making? Prayer before the Blessed Sacrament can be very powerful. I believe God finds it pleasing when we place a specific need before Him and place our trust in His mercy to guide us in the matter. I like the idea of counseling, too, as you can probably tell from my previous posts, but I think the Divine Counselor is the best!

One of my favorite quotes from Blessed John Henry Newman:

They who pray for His saving help to change their likings and dislikings, their tastes, their views, their wills, their hearts, do not all at once gain what they seek... they do not perceive that they gain it, but if they continually day by day come to Him--humbly, in faith--determined to go on seeking, honoring, serving Him (not seeking a sign)--such men will gain--whether they see light, feel comfort, or discern growth. They will in the end find themselves saved wondrously. "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength..."

Maybe the "sign" you seek will be a slightly different outlook and/or new insights after a period of prayer...

[Chesterton18]

I find this rather depressing. You're both in your 30s. A woman's fertility starts declining in her late 20s and dips significantly past 35. Ditto for men. There are no promises in life, but statistically, you're not super-likely to end up with an overwhelming number of kids even if you practice no birth control. So is this really the issue? You're considering ending a relationship with a "phenomenal" woman because you might, though probably won't, end up having more children then you're comfortable with?

[Elizium23]

It is quite possible for someone to look like a "good person" to one's friends and family but still be on the broad and well-traveled path to Hell.

[Deo Gratias42]

Originally Posted by cavaleriesoldaa

The Pill: 93% (Proven in the mainstream to cause several forms of cancers and other physical problems)

Not to mention the hormonal changes cause women to be attracted to effeminate men with feminine facial features. ICK! Thanks, no.

[Deo Gratias42]

Originally Posted by Chesterton18

I find this rather depressing. You're both in your 30s. A woman's fertility starts declining in her late 20s and dips significantly past 35. Ditto for men. There are no promises in life, but statistically, you're not super-likely to end up with an overwhelming number of kids even if you practice no birth control. So is this really the issue? You're considering ending a relationship with a "phenomenal" woman because you might, though probably won't, end up having more children then you're comfortable with?

There are women in my parish who married past their 30s, are reaching 50 and have 9+ children. Anything is possible.

[CaptainPicard]

Originally Posted by mattingly23

What are your expectations for us?

Do you expect me to participate in Opus Dei?

What will it be like if I don’t - for your family?

What are your views on other forms of birth control?

If we had children would you expect them to join Opus?

What is your status in Opus Dei?

Forget what you hear about in Dan Brown novels, Opus Dei is a highly respected Catholic organization that is designed to help people live holier lives. Opus Dei is not the issue between you two. The issue is that she takes her Catholic faith seriously and you don't. You are right to be concerned about this.

What you should be aware of is that if she is a good Catholic woman (and it sounds like she is) you will never have sex with her before you marry her, you will never have contracepted sex with her, she will expect you to go to mass every week and help her raise the kids in the faith. That's the way it is. If you are planning on not living up to any of those standards, it would be better for the both of you not to get married.

But why is she so stubborn about these things? Because she understands something that as of right now, you don't. Namely, if the claims that the Catholic Church makes are true -- that the supreme all-loving God created us, saved us, endowed us with a certain mission in this life, and left us with a Church which gives us the means of being perfectly happy with Him for all eternity (with hell being the alternative) -- than that is the absolute most important thing in life.

If the Church is right, everything else is dwarfed in comparison with the responsibility to be a good and holy God-loving Catholic. If the Church is wrong, it doesn't matter at all, it's just a bunch of fairy tales and falsehoods. I don't see how the Church can be just "ok'. It's all or nothing.

[Rose71]

Your post couldn't have been more timely for me! I've been seeing a man for several months now, who I've known as a friend for nearly 4 years.

He's one of the most thoughtful, compassionate and Christian people I have ever met. Although he was raised a Catholic, he lost his faith many years ago and like most people our age over here, has never received any really solid Catholic instruction. He's known I'm a practising Catholic since long before we got together - but he never quite grasped the fact that I have no intention of having sex outside mariage

From my point of view, he's much, much more of a Catholic than the many Catholic men and women I've encountered who seem to think it is attendance at Mass and not sex, that should wait until after one is married!

We've just had 'the talk' and I've made it clear to him that
1) I have no hang-ups about my body
2) I have no hang-ups about sex
3) I would love to share my body with him and it is constant temptation - but I only have 1 life on this earth and I want to live accoridng to the teachings of the Church to the best of my ability. This isn't for any self-indulgent, emotional security-blanket, superstitious or otherwise wacky and cult-ish reason. This is because I have seen examples in my own family and outside that show me, beyond reasonable doubt, that couples who respect themselves and one another and live according to the teachings of the Church have stronger mariages.
4) If he or I decide to end things, if we haven't had sex, I will still have something to give to my future husband. Realistically, I hope we do end up together - but we need to think for a while longer and it's not just men who can't think straight when all that fills their heads is the thought of a quick (or slow) roll in the hay It is my duty (and his) to help one another make an objective decision.
5) This is going to be a hard time for both of us, because we are totally in love and we both want it to work. If you said to me, "do you think this man will help you become a better person and draw you closer to God?" my answer would be resounding 'Yes!' - and I've never been able to say that honestly about any man who purports to be a Catholic.

These days, because society has become so secularised, some people who hold very strong beliefs are actually a bit bonkers and their 'faith' is an emotional security blanket, or a justification to themselves that it's okay not to putyourself on the line for love and take risks with your emotions. I know that sounds harsh - but it's unfortunately true!

Your girlfriend is part of a family with solid values and a member of a well-respected organisation that seems to attract intelligent and professional people, so from what you say - I think you've found the genuine article

What you are doing - trying to see things from her point of view; respecting her beliefs; talking to priests; wanting to attend Mass; undertanding how important marriage is - these are all tangible and real demonstrations of the sort of man you are and I can see exactly why she's in love with you.

As someone with a similar background (from what you say) to your girlfriend, I would say keep open-minded, but for the sake of keeping it zipped for a while longer - is it worth throwing away what could be the key to an amazing life?

[GWright]

She also believes in Natural Family Planning and this also bothers me as I think birth control is a necessary measure in today's times

Hiya OP,

It is actually fully possible for a woman to manage her fertility naturally, using the Billings NFP method.

This is what is used in China by the Government, to effect their 1 chuild per family policy.

Its very effective - the Chinese dont waste their time on rubbish. There are over 1,000,000 Billings teachers in China currently.

The reasons "the pill" is popualr in the west is because:

- it removes the need for responsibility and awareness from the woman
- capitalists ("big pharma" etc) make a fortune over manufacturing and selling these drugs
- lies are spread that it is impossible to manage fertility naturally

The main downsides of the pill are its side effects - eg it is a grade 1 carcinogen, the same as tobacco smoke and asbestos, and the amount of female hormones dumped into the water supply - via the use of the pill - is starting to cause problems for fish and other such creatures.

[mattingly23]

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking as of late. Is it possible I can adapt? It is possible, but I’m not sure how much time that will take. Even if I don’t agree intellectually, I can respect the views of others but in a potential life-long relationship, it becomes trickier. When I consulted with a priest, he said something that stuck with me, “when the rubber hits the road and times are tough, that’s when the core differences come into play the most”. I believe he is right and as we have encountered some ups and downs along the way, I don’t think we’ve been through truly difficult times together. We are approaching a cross roads where these long term issues are being spoken of and I guess we’ll see what we are made of.

It has been very helpful reading the comments on this thread. As with many things in life, what I have written is not the whole complete story, but the jist of the issue. I do feel that the more knowledgeable I can become on how she or a “practicing - potentially orthodox” Catholic intends to live, the more comfortable I can speak to the issues. I must admit that I sometimes may not be sensitive enough when discussing such things with this special woman, but I am trying not to be so negative. I’ll continue to gather information and try to access what change I am capable of. It certainly feels like these aren’t issues where compromise applies and that is a hard pill to swallow for me.

I do wish everyone well in whatever comes their way next. Thank you.

[ThyKingdomCome]

Originally Posted by mattingly23

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking as of late. Is it possible I can adapt? It is possible, but I’m not sure how much time that will take. Even if I don’t agree intellectually, I can respect the views of others but in a potential life-long relationship, it becomes trickier.

This is a great insight. It is one thing to respectfully disagree with your friends, but these are deeply held values. And deeply held values tend to become more important as you age. Particularly with serious Catholics, these tend to become more and more the "core" of who you are. It can be very difficult to not share that core with your spouse, and in many relationships, there is great sadness over the lack of connection between spouses on these issues.

Originally Posted by mattingly23

When I consulted with a priest, he said something that stuck with me, “when the rubber hits the road and times are tough, that’s when the core differences come into play the most”.

Wise priest. In addition to the rubber-road situations, there is also the matter of child rearing. When it comes time to teach your child how to be the best person they can be, religious values become very important, and differences become magnified. For a serious/orthodox/opus-dei-style Catholic, imparting the faith in all of its truth is a matter of life and death - actually, spiritual life and death (aka salvation or damnation). Catholics whose religious differences with their spouses keep them from doing that suffer great heartache at the worry for their children's souls. OTOH, you should consider that while you can respect a different view of another person, that is not the same as accepting that your own children will be taught that different view. I'm sure there is a similar stress/sadness/heartache coming from the other side of the religious fence for parents who feel like they can not raise their children with their values and beliefs (after all, you wouldn't hold those values if you didn't think they were right). If this is hard to believe, keep in mind that the aching love and concern that you will someday have for your children's well being is not really possible to understand until you experience it. You just have to trust that when children come along, suddenly things that were not so important become very important, and you start caring more deeply about things than you thought you would.

[faithfully]

Originally Posted by Deo Gratias42

Not to mention the hormonal changes cause women to be attracted to effeminate men with feminine facial features. ICK! Thanks, no.

Wow is there some science on this? I was on ABC for medical reasons 20 years ago. DH is quite masculine. But I'm with you, can't stand a pretty boy. I'm trying to think of friends that I KNEW were on ABC... and can't see a fem. husbad among them.

[The Bucket]

Originally Posted by faithfully

Wow is there some science on this? I was on ABC for medical reasons 20 years ago. DH is quite masculine. But I'm with you, can't stand a pretty boy. I'm trying to think of friends that I KNEW were on ABC... and can't see a fem. husbad among them.

There is actually science behind this, though I don't know if being seen as a "reliable dad" means feminine. It does, however, mean the more "beta" traits are favored when ovulation is not taking place.

http://www.livescience.com/20294-wom...-bad-boys.html

The researchers had women view online dating profiles of either a sexy man or a reliable man during periods of both high and low fertility. Participants were asked to indicate the expected paternal contribution from the men if they had a child together based on how helpful the man would be caring for the baby, shopping for food, cooking and contributing to household chores. Near ovulation women thought that the sexy man would contribute more to these domestic duties...

The researchers followed up that find with a second study in which women interacted directly with male actors who played the roles of sexy cad and reliable dad once during ovulation and again at low fertility. Again, ovulating women thought that the sexy cad — but not the reliable dad — would contribute more to childcare, but only as her partner (not if he shacked up with another woman).

[Elizium23]

Originally Posted by mattingly23

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking as of late. Is it possible I can adapt? It is possible, but I’m not sure how much time that will take. Even if I don’t agree intellectually, I can respect the views of others but in a potential life-long relationship, it becomes trickier. When I consulted with a priest, he said something that stuck with me, “when the rubber hits the road and times are tough, that’s when the core differences come into play the most”. I believe he is right and as we have encountered some ups and downs along the way, I don’t think we’ve been through truly difficult times together. We are approaching a cross roads where these long term issues are being spoken of and I guess we’ll see what we are made of.

It has been very helpful reading the comments on this thread. As with many things in life, what I have written is not the whole complete story, but the jist of the issue. I do feel that the more knowledgeable I can become on how she or a “practicing - potentially orthodox” Catholic intends to live, the more comfortable I can speak to the issues. I must admit that I sometimes may not be sensitive enough when discussing such things with this special woman, but I am trying not to be so negative. I’ll continue to gather information and try to access what change I am capable of. It certainly feels like these aren’t issues where compromise applies and that is a hard pill to swallow for me.

I do wish everyone well in whatever comes their way next. Thank you.

You are still putting this in a context of your relationship with one girl, but you need to look at the cold hard facts of salvation or not, Heaven or Hell, for yourself. Relationships come and go and they are important to this earthly life, but what really matters in the end is giving glory to God, and your personal holiness. You need to ask yourself if your own opinions are important enough to forsake eternal life by disobeying God and His Church. Ask yourself if walking around every day without God's grace is something you really want to risk. Pride goeth before a fall - Adam and Eve had the first sin, and they knew what they were doing. We are giving you all the warning signs here and while you are still alive, you have every chance to change your ways and assent to the Truth. Repent and visit the confessional once, and see how it feels. Naturally, you will eventually need to make a habit of it, but isn't it worth trying once to see if it makes you feel better? It will put you in a state of grace. There is no better feeling than that, for me. It's a foretaste of Heaven, because you know that if you continue walking with the Lord, you will get there.

As a side benefit of accepting the Lord back into your life, your relationship with this girl may also grow as you find yourself seeking holiness and sanctification through a marriage and the procreation of children. It is a worthy vocation if you have discerned it properly. You will be in my prayers. I hope that you can accept the plain and simple teachings from the Word of God and thereby save your soul.

[Rose71]

Well, I'm sticking by what I posted earlier: you are obviously a good, caring and intelligent man. If you both decide that it's not meant to be, it will be a very painful time for both of you; but I have no doubt that you are good and honest people and despite the pain, you'll know you've put one another first - even if it sucks!

Relationships, especially marriage, are about so much more than sex though and I think this forum can become just a touch obsessive on the topic

I see chastity before marriage as a demonstratin of respect for one another and an opportunity to discern objectively. Unless you don't need to go out and earn a living during the week and have no other hobbies, how long are you intending to actually spend in bed?!!!

I know it sounds a silly question, but that same self-discipline and respect for others that your girlfriend is showing now is going to be an amazing asset to the marriage when things get rough. These qualities are necessary to get through all the mundane, every day trials and tribulations too - like living within one's financial means; getting along with other folk; attending events where mad / difficult / embarassing relatives might be in attendance with good grace.

Of course, as Catholics, we are all routing for you to take the plunge and renew your faith - and we are a soppy bunch who love the idea of a wedding!

Start looking at the positives as much as the perceived negatives. I know you are right in exploring the 'what ifs' and potential deal-breakers; but take a look at the real deal-breaker.....the worst-case scenario...

One day, through accident or illness, you or your future wife (whoever she may be) could end up paralysed, incontinent, mentally damaged, disfigured ..... and so could your children, or a relative you need to care for. Sex might be out of the question for a very long time - possibly forever

I know I'd pick a partner that had the best chance of still treating me with dignity, respect and love, even if I ended up a vegetable; because he would have the certainty and trust that I would do the same for him. Or maybe one of us would have to spend less time with the other in order to care for a relative. This means I look for someone who understands humility, sacrifice, the true meaning of love and self-discipline.

and finding a partner with those qualities, who would give me the strength to be "conqueror of myself; Lord of the World; friend of God and heir to Heaven" - would pretty much guarentee that once married - he'd defnitely want for nothing

[anruari]

It sounds to me like you've found an excellent woman and you should place yourself into her hands as a potential husband... but you need to consider this:

You stated taht you would feel religiously satisfied with weekly attendance at mass.

Your salvation is not about feeling religiously satisfied.

It is by Faith in Christ that we are saved. Not by "Works of the Law".
In st. Pauls letters the "Works of the Law" are the rules on sacrifice and purity, attendance at the Temple and synagogue that were the method by which Jews strove for salvation.

Faith in Christ is a totally different thing.

Could you love your wife by following a cut down minimised rulebook that says you need to give her flowers once a moth and massage her feet on a friday night and think this is sufficient... you can then do anything you like the rest of the week - with your money, your body and your life?
Rediculous.

Faith and Faithfull are the same word.
Faith in Christ means being faithful to him... not just on Sundays for 1 hour.

You must Believe in him. You must Follow him. You must do what he taught us to do.

It is not "Good Works" that save us either. There are many people who have devoted their lives to the service of others but dont know or believe in christ - or worse have explicityly rejected him.

the former type have no surity of salvation. the last has near-surity of damnation. (but nothing is impossible to God.)

This Woman you describe Loves Jesus. She Loves God. She Loves Mary. She Loves Christ's Church.
She would not have obtained membership of the Opus Dei if she was merely "going through the motions"
She is trying to lead a truly faithfull Christian Life, and live as free from Sin as she possibly can.

If she Loves you she will desire your Conversion.
by that I don't mean some ritual like adult baptism -or a charismatic "baptism in the spirit" or "born again experience" - but a real conversion of Heart, leading to or coming from a real, mystical encounter with the Person of Jesus.
She is probably praying for this every day.

This is a Life and death issue.
With faithfulness in Christ we have true everlasting life.
Without that faithfullness we have eternal damnation. - most especially if we have consciously rejected Christ and His Gospel. That action brings certainty of damnation.

Your Girlfriend will not try to make you join the Opus Dei... but it would be very good for you to approach the local mens section and ask about what it means to be a Co-Operator or a Super-Numenary. ask what the Opus Dei can teach you as a non member.

As a previous poster suggested there are other groups who can also help you to come closer to Jesus as a man. the Knights of Saint Coloumbus are an excellent example, but there are many many more groups other than these.

I myself considered becoming a Super-Numenary - but it would not suit my family. I am involved in other movements instead which suit our family better.

I would recommend that you put your initial questions aside and consider your own Salvation. Do you want to go to Heaven. Would you like to stand beside this woman in front of Th Lord and present her and your children to Him? Would you like to spend eternity together in paradise?
Would you prefer to spend eternity in Hatred. separated from God. Separated from everything that is good? That state is a worse torture than the human soul can bear - but being immortal , bear it the soul must. Forever.

God, through the suffering death and ressurection of Christ has granted you Salvation and the Forgiveness of all your sins. All you need to do is say "Yes". He will then take you by the hand and purify you.

That purification is not a simple or instant process. It can be painful. You will in the course of a spiritual journey cut away al sin and attachment to sin. IF the process is not complete when you die it can be completed as you are judged and prepare yourself for eternity. (this is called Purgatory). But it is done for you By God. - if you let Him.

This Woman - your Girlfriend is an Angel. and actor of God leading you to him. I pray that you say "Yes."
If you do then she may well be your first reward here on this earth, and a foretaste of what is to come.