Glass Chalices?

sinner · #1 Aug 2, '04, 12:43 pm

We're trying to implement the new GIRM in our parish and our pastor said the glass chalice was acceptable. I thought the chalice needed to be made of noble material that was not easily breakable. What's the scoop?

Fast_ed75 · #2 Aug 2, '04, 12:57 pm

I think the scoop is that many priests and laity simply do not believe in the "real presence" and are embarrased to use precious metal as vessels. Also, many may find the practice pre-Vatican II, which focused on the sacrifice and not the "community meal" promulgated by many of the local unhabited nuns. In my diocese I have yet to find one parish that does NOT use glass chalices. If they truly believed in the Real Presence they would spend 90-200 dollars on a gold plated chalice and trash the .99 cent Libby water goblets.

Bobby Jim · #3 Aug 2, '04, 1:18 pm

What's the issue with breakability? If you drop a glass chalice, it will break and the Precious Blood will spill. If you drop a gold-plated chalice, it may not break but the Precious Blood will still spill. You can also make a non-breakable chalice from plastic or aluminum, but those aren't noble materials either.

The nobility of the material seems to be a separate issue from the breakability.

Servulus · #4 Aug 2, '04, 1:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinner

I thought the chalice needed to be made of noble material that was not easily breakable.

You are correct. here's what the GIRM says:

"327 Among the requisites for the celebration of Mass, the sacred vessels hold a place of honor, especially the chalice and plate, in which the bread and wine are offered, consecrated and consumed.

328 Sacred vessels are to be made from noble metal. If they are fabricated from metal which produces rust, or from a metal less noble than gold, then generally they shall be gold-plated on the inside.
329 In accord with the judgment of the Conference of Bishops, in acts confirmed by the Apostolic See, sacred vessels may be made even from other solid materials which, in the common estimation of the region are regarded as noble e.g., ebony or other hard woods as long as such materials are suited to sacred use. In such cases, preference is always to be given to materials that do not break easily or deteriorate. Materials intended for all vessels which hold the Eucharistic bread such as the plate, ciborium, theca, monstrance or others of this kind should be likewise suitable to sacred use. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, sacred vessels may also be made from other solid materials that, according to the common estimation in each region, are precious, for example, ebony or other hard woods, provided that such materials do not break easily or deteriorate. This applies to all vessels which hold the hosts such as the paten, the ciborium, the pyx, the monstrance, and other things of this kind.
330 As to chalices and other vessels that serve as receptacles for the blood of the Lord, they are to have bowls of nonabsorbent material. The base may be of any other solid and worthy material."

Since glass is not precious in the common estimation, and is easily breakable, it would seem to be unacceptable.

Hope that helps.

kwitz · #5 Aug 2, '04, 1:27 pm

We used to have glass chalices in our parish several years ago. Why? Our pastor had gone to Ireland and specifically bought these special, crystal glasses as a gift to the parish. However, recently I noticed we are now using gold chalices and I assume our pastor as always is trying to follow the GIRM as best he can. Did we use glass for a while because he didn't believe in the Real Presence - NO.

Kris

Fast_ed75 · #6 Aug 2, '04, 1:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwitz

We used to have glass chalices in our parish several years ago. Why? Our pastor had gone to Ireland and specifically bought these special, crystal glasses as a gift to the parish. However, recently I noticed we are now using gold chalices and I assume our pastor as always is trying to follow the GIRM as best he can. Did we use glass for a while because he didn't believe in the Real Presence - NO.

Kris

There is quite a difference between using "special, crystal glasses" imported from Ireland and using K-Mart's Martha Stewart's clearance glassware!

kwitz · #7 Aug 2, '04, 1:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast_ed75

There is quite a difference between using "special, crystal glasses" imported from Ireland and using K-Mart's Martha Stewart's clearance glassware!

I agree totally, but anyone walking into our parish with the mindset of some who are over the top "this is the way things are done" would have seen glass and "assumed" our parish wasn't orthodox. If you didn't know why we used those crystal glasses, you might think- as someone posted here - that our pastor didn't believe in the Real Presence which couldn't be further from the truth. It's the ability of some to know motives of others that really frustrates me.

Kris

Bobby Jim · #8 Aug 2, '04, 1:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast_ed75

Also, many may find the practice pre-Vatican II, which focused on the sacrifice and not the "community meal" promulgated by many of the local unhabited nuns.

What does this have to do with nuns?

naprous · #9 Aug 2, '04, 2:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Jim

What does this have to do with nuns?

Thank you, Bobby Jim!

I think the answer is "nothing," but that won't stop some people from being on a soapbox.

Naprous

Br. Rich SFO · #10 Aug 2, '04, 3:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Jim

What's the issue with breakability? If you drop a glass chalice, it will break and the Precious Blood will spill. If you drop a gold-plated chalice, it may not break but the Precious Blood will still spill. You can also make a non-breakable chalice from plastic or aluminum, but those aren't noble materials either.

The nobility of the material seems to be a separate issue from the breakability.

That is correct. A person could use a cut crystal that was worth several thousand dollars. But it also needs to be safe for use, crystal can chip and cut, can shatter if hit in a certain way. When setting Chalices up into the cupboard I have several times clanked them together.

John Higgins · #11 Aug 2, '04, 3:27 pm

I would, and do regard Waterford crystal as noble. I've been to Waterford, it's not plain old cut crystal; it's more than that.

John

deaconswife · #12 Aug 4, '04, 8:59 am

The way many dioceses have responded to the new instructions is based on the cost factor primarily. In our diocese we may still use our glassware, however, when it breaks we are to replace it with either gold or silver. Many of the parishes, escpecially in the city, do not have a large amount of discretionary income to replace their entire stock and so doing it this way allows them to replace one at a time in a way that would not impose a financial hardship on a parish.

kmktexas · #13 Aug 4, '04, 9:24 am

In the US, I have yet to encounter a parish that doesn't have one gold chalice that they use for the Consecration. That's the only one that is really necessary. The others are for distributing Communion under both species, which is a commendable but optional practice. I would much rather see a parish set aside the practice of distributing communion under both species until funds for additional chalices could be raised rather than give "permission" to continue something that the Church has forbidden.

You might be pleasantly surprise how quickly a benefactor or fund raising committee comes up with the money for gold cups.

BLB_Oregon · #14 Aug 4, '04, 9:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Jim

What's the issue with breakability? If you drop a glass chalice, it will break and the Precious Blood will spill. If you drop a gold-plated chalice, it may not break but the Precious Blood will still spill. You can also make a non-breakable chalice from plastic or aluminum, but those aren't noble materials either.

The nobility of the material seems to be a separate issue from the breakability.

When we built our house, we used to refer to Rule 1 of Building Codes: The way it is (what is according to code) and the way that makes sense at first glance have no necessary connection. If you are building a house and want to pass all your inspections, you had better not forget Rule 1. Now, when we catch ourselves substituting our opinion in a situation where a rule probably exists but which we don't know, we just say, "Refer to Rule 1!" and go look it up.

When it comes to Canon Law, I see Rule 1 as an opportunity to practice obedience for the sake of unity. OK, it seems a pain, sometimes, but the canons all have a reason.

Fortiterinre · #15 Aug 4, '04, 11:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Higgins

I would, and do regard Waterford crystal as noble. I've been to Waterford, it's not plain old cut crystal; it's more than that.

John

Many of us Irish get misty at the sight of Waterford, and I know of many Irish parishes and pastors that made great efforts to get beautiful Waterford chalices. The breakability is always the hard part, so as much as I love noble Waterford I prefer gold for chalices.