Original sin/ Islamic point of view

[Booklover]

For any Muslim who is interested, here's what the Catechism says about original sin.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN....html#ORIGINAL

Vickie

[inJESUS]

i found this interesting to those who say that Adam was not expelled from paradise cuz he disobeyed Allah:



27. O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.

According to quran, Adam WAS expelled from paradise NOT because his dwelling place was supposed to be initially earth, but because of Satan ( evil).

20. Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before):

this means that something happened...they were able to "recognize" shame..they were not the same anymore..they lost their innocence.

[Faith101]

[quote]

Originally Posted by inJESUS

i found this interesting to those who say that Adam was not expelled from paradise cuz he disobeyed Allah:

I dont beleive that i ever said that. What I said was that Adam was not meant to dwell in paradise forever. Before even creating Adam, God said "I will create a vicegerent on earth"...the series of events that led up to that, is, i repeat, meant for us to learn from...as one of the verses that you quoted clearly explains, and as i have said many times on the God's plan thread that i told you look through before asking the same questions here.

At the end of the day, we dont believe a soul will bear the burden of another, whether that person be Adam or Eve or whatever. Whatever burden we bear is that which our own selfs have laid...and even those burdens can be completely wiped out if we simply repent. Again, no murder of an innocent man needed.

Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear anothers burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning). (17:15)

[inJESUS]

[quote=Faith101][quote]

I dont beleive that i ever said that. What I said was that Adam was not meant to dwell in paradise forever. Before even creating Adam, God said "I will create a vicegerent on earth"...the series of events that led up to that, is, i repeat, meant for us to learn from...as one of the verses that you quoted clearly explains, and as i have said many times on the God's plan thread that i told you look through before asking the same questions here. i forgot about that thread..i'll look for it tonight...my point was this though: Adam was expelled from paradise because of evil.

At the end of the day, we dont believe a soul will bear the burden of another, whether that person be Adam or Eve or whatever. Whatever burden we bear is that which our own selfs have laid...and even those burdens can be completely wiped out if we simply repent. Again, no murder of an innocent man needed.

no need to refuse anything just cuz it could be linked to Jesus..that's paranoic as if nothing related to Jesus is correct for muhammad...if you do not believe in the burden, then look at humanity...Adam= humanity.

Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear anothers burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning). (17:15)

irrelevant verse..you still confuse original sin (which is a religious term ) with "sin" ..yes everyone is responsible for his own acts..but we are talking about the "shame" that Adam knew when he leaned to evil...something in Adam's nature changed...his nature is no longer the one he was born with...Adam's nature knew corruption...i don't believe a corrupt nature can be reconciled to a Holy nature by it's own merit cuz deeds make you better but do not make your nature Holy.

[randel]

Hi inJesus,

Adam was born with both abilities (i.e to commit sin and not to) and this is how God created man.

If man was created perfect with no ability to commit sin, then God's command to Adam to refrain from the forbiden tree, makes no sense.

Before eating the forbidden tree Adam was obviously sinless thus he was born sinless. It is this first and foremost nature we all inherit as such we all are born sinless thus if you die when you are a baby, you deserve heaven, Eternal life.

Now the changes that took place in Adam's existence after eating the forbidden tree, are not like inheritable otherwise God would not have accepted Adam's repentance and He would have let him suffer eternally. But since God did accept his repentace/prayer, thus whatever change(s) happened in Adam's physical body is due to his personal act and shouldn't have a domino effect or continuous inheritable effect. This change may be taken as, if you eat/drink/swallow certain chemicals that you are allergic to, then if any drastic/severe changes happened in your body; then these changes may not neccessarily effect your nature or cease your ability to do good things as such your progeny may not be as rebellious/pious as you are. The most they may inherit from you is some or more or similar physical/genetical properties of you but spiritual/character will be their own and not neccessarily just like yours.

The initial and first command/warning of God to Adam itself is a proof that God had given man a free choice to man to excercise it even in the Paradise.

Now that Paradise is not neccessarily the same type of Paradise (heaven) that the Law abiding people with God's Mercy will eventually inherit in the Afterlife because these man who are going to live in the Heaven in the Afterlife, are spiritualised men and not men like of Adam or our present physical nature. Because when Adam was born, it was his first birth, and he was placed in the Garden as it is and not after his death and resurrected spiritual form.

So the heaven that Adam was placed in and the one all godly people will dwell in after their spiritualised resurrection, may not neccessarily the same and not neccessarily a sign of closeness to God, because God is beyond human imagination and everything (that is known and unkown to men) are within God's control but God is not neccessarily exists/resides in every created thing or everywhere.

And at the end of the day (as FAITH said), no other person is responsible for your sins/mistakes or good deeds. Period.
Logically and rationally the greatness of man should not be him being born as totally immune to commit any sin. The greatness and God's Mercy on man is him being born with both abilities of doing sin/mistake or refrain from sin/mistake, and then if commits any sin/mistake repent to God becaue this life is a trial with free choice. If you are born sinless thus did not make mistake then what trial you really went through? If you wear a fire proof dress head to toe and burned yourself with fire and did not die, and claimed that "see I did not die nor fire burned my up nor I was afraid of fire while I burning myself", then I would say "what is the big deal?"

Now comig to Jesus' birth. He too was a man and born as a man just like Adam. Thus Jesus' greatness is despite being born just like us, refrained from all major sins.

Saying that Jesus was God and did not commit sin, is a meaningless statement. Because, what God had to do with the sins, anyway? God is God.

If you say God came down to earth or born as a perfect full man and did not commit sin, then I would say: "what is the big deal? God is the Greatest already. There is notthing comparable to Him."

Did you notice how meaningless is your idea of God becoming a perfect sinless man?

Let me put it this way: Let's say you are a Doctor of Divinity and you are invited in a public meeting to preach your Catholic faith. The chairman of the meeting before calling you, introduces you, in these words: "Ladies and Gentelmen! Mr. inJESUS is a great learned man and he is a Doctor of Dvinity and he knows Alphabet perfectly that he can recite abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz out of his memory." Then guess! what people will think about the chairman's introduction. Obviously you cannot become a Doctor of Divinity without knowing the Alphabet thus what is the greatness or speciality of you, in saying that you know Alphabet when you are already a Doctor of Divinity?.

[inJESUS]

[quote]

Originally Posted by randel

Hi inJesus,

Adam was born with both abilities (i.e to commit sin and not to) and this is how God created man.

If man was created perfect with no ability to commit sin, then God's command to Adam to refrain from the forbiden tree, makes no sense.

Before eating the forbidden tree Adam was obviously sinless thus he was born sinless. It is this first and foremost nature we all inherit as such we all are born sinless thus if you die when you are a baby, you deserve heaven, Eternal life.

Now the changes that took place in Adam's existence after eating the forbidden tree, are not like inheritable otherwise God would not have accepted Adam's repentance and He would have let him suffer eternally. But since God did accept his repentace/prayer, thus whatever change(s) happened in Adam's physical body is due to his personal act and shouldn't have a domino effect or continuous inheritable effect. This change may be taken as, if you eat/drink/swallow certain chemicals that you are allergic to, then if any drastic/severe changes happened in your body; then these changes may not neccessarily effect your nature or cease your ability to do good things as such your progeny may not be as rebellious/pious as you are. The most they may inherit from you is some or more or similar physical/genetical properties of you but spiritual/character will be their own and not neccessarily just like yours.

The initial and first command/warning of God to Adam itself is a proof that God had given man a free choice to man to excercise it even in the Paradise.

Now that Paradise is not neccessarily the same type of Paradise (heaven) that the Law abiding people with God's Mercy will eventually inherit in the Afterlife because these man who are going to live in the Heaven in the Afterlife, are spiritualised men and not men like of Adam or our present physical nature. Because when Adam was born, it was his first birth, and he was placed in the Garden as it is and not after his death and resurrected spiritual form.

So the heaven that Adam was placed in and the one all godly people will dwell in after their spiritualised resurrection, may not neccessarily the same and not neccessarily a sign of closeness to God, because God is beyond human imagination and everything (that is known and unkown to men) are within God's control but God is not neccessarily exists/resides in every created thing or everywhere.

And at the end of the day (as FAITH said), no other person is responsible for your sins/mistakes or good deeds. Period.
Logically and rationally the greatness of man should not be him being born as totally immune to commit any sin. The greatness and God's Mercy on man is him being born with both abilities of doing sin/mistake or refrain from sin/mistake, and then if commits any sin/mistake repent to God becaue this life is a trial with free choice. If you are born sinless thus did not make mistake then what trial you really went through? If you wear a fire proof dress head to toe and burned yourself with fire and did not die, and claimed that "see I did not die nor fire burned my up nor I was afraid of fire while I burning myself", then I would say "what is the big deal?"

regarding original sin, there are theological schools about it so it's not a big deal for me whether we have the same exact interpretation or not...unlike what muslims think, it is not the original sin idea that made Jesus' death purposefull...whether you believe in orginal sin or original grace is fine with me.

Now comig to Jesus' birth. He too was a man and born as a man just like Adam. Thus Jesus' greatness is despite being born just like us, refrained from all major sins.

Jesus born like Adam? what do you mean?

Saying that Jesus was God and did not commit sin, is a meaningless statement. Because, what God had to do with the sins, anyway? God is God.

yea but why are you discussing this here and where did you get the idea from?

Did you notice how meaningless is your idea of God becoming a perfect sinless man?

would you remind me of where i wrote this?

[Faith101]

no need to refuse anything just cuz it could be linked to Jesus..that's paranoic as if nothing related to Jesus is correct for muhammad...if you do not believe in the burden, then look at humanity...Adam= humanity.

All what you are doing here is trying to set the stage for the need of the murder of an innocent man. So I just cut right to the chase, as they say. Please correct me if im wrong...you believe Jesus died for you, so that you may be "holy" enough to be with God, freeing you of that "sin" that you inherited from Adam. If that is your basis, then you will have to spend hours on this thread trying to prove that we indeed did inherit this from Adam. All this, at the end, to justify that Jesus had to die.

But let me summarize the muslims side

1. Adam sinned, repented, and was forgiven. End of "original sin"
2. We are born sin-less, with only the free-will nature that God has given us which we use to either choose the path of righteousness or the path of evil. We will never be perfect, we werent created that way. But we try to stay on the straight path, making mistakes left and right, and being forgiven for them as long as we repent.
3. No body has to die for anybody to be allowed to be in the presence of God. God's mercy works like that. And before you say it, i'm gong to say it again..the delicate balance between God's mercy and God's justice is easy for Him to keep.....He is the all-knowing, most-wise.

[inJESUS]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Faith101

All what you are doing here is trying to set the stage for the need of the murder of an innocent man. So I just cut right to the chase, as they say. Please correct me if im wrong...you believe Jesus died for you, so that you may be "holy" enough to be with God, freeing you of that "sin" that you inherited from Adam. If that is your basis, then you will have to spend hours on this thread trying to prove that we indeed did inherit this from Adam. All this, at the end, to justify that Jesus had to die.

allow me to correct you and to give you a small clue :

i said in the previous post that the original sin is a theological idea that not all schools of theology adopt..there are those who believe in Original grace instead..so whether you prefer this concept or the other one, the fact remains that Jesus was crucified..that is the starting point and the theological schools are a consequence...so : you do not HAVE to believe in original sin to believe that Jesus died. Those who believe in original grace believe that Jesus died as well...in fact, you might find different theological schools, but you will find none that denies Jesus' death whether Christians or Jews..this is the starting point.

Anyway, i did not start a thread to give a "reason" to Jesus' death..Jesus died, that's a fact.
My point was to explain a bit this concept from a philosophical point of view..and i found the same idea in quran. So saying that original sin is a silly concept is wrong even islamically..Jesus' death is not what am interested to talk about cuz this is a fact.

But let me summarize the muslims side

1. Adam sinned, repented, and was forgiven. End of "original sin"

how so? Adam knew "shame"..yes Adam was forgiven, but we are back to the change in his nature when he disobeyed and the quran agrees : it made Adam see his " shame"

22. So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them,

= when they disobeyed God, they knew what shame is..a change occured..can you delete the knowlege of shame anymore?no..can you say that Adam is the same now? no..he is not innocent anymore..doing good has nothing to do with this.

now if you don't want to talk about Adam, you tell me, is human nature perfect? where do thoughtsof murder, lust, rape, hurting come from? from your nature no? you previously said human nature isn't perfect..now your problem is with the"inheritance" stuff...whether Adam made you inherit it or not, is the result the same or not?

2. We are born sin-less, with only the free-will nature that God has given us which we use to either choose the path of righteousness or the path of evil. We will never be perfect, we werent created that way

but you were created sinless which i agree with...but why can't you stay as such?.why will sinful ideas crept into your mind ? isn't it human nature?whether Allah forgives or not is a different topic..if Allah forgives you your sins, will your nature change? no, you will try not to commit them, but will your nature change?

3. No body has to die for anybody to be allowed to be in the presence of God. God's mercy works like that. And before you say it, i'm gong to say it again..the delicate balance between God's mercy and God's justice is easy for Him to keep.....He is the all-knowing, most-wise.

unfortunatly, mercy that is shown after you die and based on a condition is not considered mercy...

when God saves ALL without condition, THIS is called mercy.Now you will ask me : but there is a condition, you must believe in Jesus! so i'll tell you : God tells us : you are saved, do you accept it? if you say : no thank you, whose fault is it?

[Faith101]

you do not HAVE to believe in original sin to believe that Jesus died. Those who believe in original grace believe that Jesus died as well...in fact, you might find different theological schools, but you will find none that denies Jesus' death whether Christians or Jews..this is the starting point.

Good point....why do they believe that Jesus had to die? Does it still stem from the same idea that we can never be holy enough to be in the presence of God?

Anyway, i did not start a thread to give a "reason" to Jesus' death..Jesus died, that's a fact.

not for 1.3 billion people

= when they disobeyed God, they knew what shame is..a change occured..can you delete the knowlege of shame anymore?no..can you say that Adam is the same now? no..he is not innocent anymore..doing good has nothing to do with this.

What does that have to do with me, a human being living in the 21st century? My nature is not due to the fact that Adam sinned, but due to the fact that this is the nature that God chose for humans.

but you were created sinless which i agree with...but why can't you stay as such?.why will sinful ideas crept into your mind ? isn't it human nature?whether Allah forgives or not is a different topic..if Allah forgives you your sins, will your nature change? no, you will try not to commit them, but will your nature change?

Just so i can understand you better, do you believe that our nature is due to the fact that Adam sinned and not in that God created us with these natures?

unfortunatly, mercy that is shown after you die and based on a condition is not considered mercy...

If you fail to see the mercy of God in this world, there is really nothing i can do to help you with that.

when God saves ALL without condition, THIS is called mercy.Now you will ask me : but there is a condition, you must believe in Jesus! so i'll tell you : God tells us : you are saved, do you accept it? if you say : no thank you, whose fault is it

lol. No conditions huh...oh yeah, except one. Thats what we call a CONDITION. Likewise, in Islam, all you have to do is believe and do good. Thats it..nobody is asking you to be perfect. iF you mess up, just repent, Allah PROMISES to forgive you..again and again and again until your very last breath.

I worship the same God that Jesus and Abraham and Moses prostrated to. I do not need to believe that a bunch of evil people were capable of killing the fullly-human-fully-god only begotten son of God who is really God to go to paradise. Alhamdulilah for Islam.

[inJESUS]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Faith101

Good point....why do they believe that Jesus had to die? Does it still stem from the same idea that we can never be holy enough to be in the presence of God?

am not very familiar with this doctrine so i don't know it in details..as i said,the starting point is that Jesus died: whether he had to die or not is irrelevant in our discussion cuz his death is part of the salvation whether he came "to die" or to preach "but was killed"...mind you, am talking about theological ideas that have a reason: Jesus' crucifixion. So we have a fact vs theological responses to "why" he died.

not for 1.3 billion people

a fact is called a fact because it is a historical proven fact..when we have the opinion of one man whose version of what happened is neither clear nor understandable nor backed up by a single proof, that is not fact. So you can say muslims have "faith" in what a single man said, but you cannot use the term "fact" cuz when we use it, we use it because it is the testimony of many, whether Christians, Jews or pagans.

What does that have to do with me, a human being living in the 21st century? My nature is not due to the fact that Adam sinned, but due to the fact that this is the nature that God chose for humans.

i just quoted the quran that says Adam (humanity) knew "shame" when they listened to Satan (evil). That's the theological point.

Just so i can understand you better, do you believe that our nature is due to the fact that Adam sinned and not in that God created us with these natures?

i believe that God created us with the ability to choose between evil/good cuz He doesn't want robots. Unfortunately, human nature tends to do evil more than good..that's why our parents taught us as babies not to hurt, not to steal, not to rape , not to curse ecc...
The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness: "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me." "I am the way, and the truth, and the life

Jesus came to make us holy, by teaching us and giving us a live example of what God wants and how to be good..and it is indeed very tough to follow His example unless you have a divine love and power. I personally ask Jesus' forgiveness everyday if i got angry at someone, if i didn't help when i could , if i felt envious of something, if i felt scared thou He said "do not fear" ecc...see, it is tough to be as good as Jesus. Only His power strenghthens me and i was a totally different person before Jesus entered my life. Yes, human nature is not evil only when you kill or rape, but when you curse, envy, be selfish, do not give when you could, have bad intentions , mock someone even in your heart, ecc....to be as pure as Jesus wants is only achieved by the miracle of His love. This is when your nature tends really to being good instead of evil.

As i said before, whether i believe we inherit this nature literally from Adam or not, i don't think it's the focus point..it is a theological point but you can understand it by looking within and around you.

If you fail to see the mercy of God in this world, there is really nothing i can do to help you with that.

i already told you in a previous post that am not talking about this but about His mercy regarding your salvation.

Allah will show his mercy regarding your salvation after you die and based on your deeds..like 49% vs 51%. So there is always this fear of not being saved.

God already showed it and i have to accept or refuse..if i accept and follow Him, am saved. And there is no fear when Jesus said a thousand time : do not fear. There is this peace that Jesus gives as He promised.

lol. No conditions huh...oh yeah, except one. Thats what we call a CONDITION.

it's not a condition but a choice..and if you refuse it, am not gonna tell you you are doomed for Jesus said : i have sheep in other barns.

I worship the same God that Jesus and Abraham and Moses prostrated to. I do not need to believe that a bunch of evil people were capable of killing the fullly-human-fully-god only begotten son of God who is really God to go to paradise. Alhamdulilah for Islam.

you can believe whatever you want

[Faith101]

Allah will show his mercy regarding your salvation after you die and based on your deeds..like 49% vs 51%. So there is always this fear of not being saved.

God already showed it and i have to accept or refuse..if i accept and follow Him, am saved. And there is no fear when Jesus said a thousand time : do not fear. There is this peace that Jesus gives as He promised.

I apologize for not responding to your whole post, they are all good points that we can go back and forth on for hours. But here, you have said something new...and it reminded me of a verse in the Quran (actually many verses, but i will only quote a few)


Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Quran 2:112)


Verily those who say, "Our Lord is Allah," and remain firm (on that Path),- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (46:13)

it's not a condition but a choice..and if you refuse it, am not gonna tell you you are doomed for Jesus said : i have sheep in other barns.

its a condition. A condition is also based on a choice, either fullfull the condition or dont Its the same in Islam, choose to beleive and do right or dont choose to believe and do right.

[inJESUS]

my point regarding condition is that salvation is for all who accept it..that is, God already gave salvation but He will not oblige you to be with Him if you refuse.

This salvation does not exist in Islam..that is, Allah did nothing to save people, it is people on their owns who must earn it. Am not saying thou that in Christianity you are saved even if you do bad deeds..but my point is beyond that : it is what God did..in Christianity, God took the initiative to reconcile us to Him..just like a father who loves his children no matter what and does the impossible to save them from danger..in Islam there is no such thing..Allah is like a master and you are slaves who must earn things yourselves to please him..As far as i know, in islam there is no assurance..even mohammad is quoted saying he doesn't know where he will end up, and in quran one reads:
Say: I am not the first of the apostles, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner.


That's it..Jesus did not die for some people, he died for all so that all can come to the Father throu him, guaranteed..so God already saved.

[joebaydi]

Greetings

"Allah did nothing to save people, it is people on their owns who must earn it."

To begin with, we muslims believe this life to be a test. We can chose to do good/bad. It is our decision what we want to do and only we have control of ourselves. However this doesn't mean God has just created us, forsaken us and observing what we do.

We believe God has done us an enourmous favour of guiding us by sending many prophets and messengers with knowledgable books, pointing people in the right direction. In addition there are other favours that God has done for us. For example God wants us to become closer to Him by enforcing muslims to fast 1 month a year. Fasting, in Islam, itself is an increasingly effective method of increasing piety and awareness of God, according to research as well as experience. The list of favours is endless.

"As far as i know, in islam there is no assurance..even mohammad is quoted saying he doesn't know where he will end up..."

It is correct that Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) does not know the outcome of himself or others on Judgement day. Had he known the outcome, he would have been the Judge, but only God is the Judge, and only God makes the final decision.

I hope this makes things clear

[inJESUS]

[quote]

Originally Posted by joebaydi

Greetings

hello

To begin with, we muslims believe this life to be a test. We can chose to do good/bad. It is our decision what we want to do and only we have control of ourselves. However this doesn't mean God has just created us, forsaken us and observing what we do.

fine

We believe God has done us an enourmous favour of guiding us by sending many prophets and messengers with knowledgable books, pointing people in the right direction.

one problem here..according to muslims ( and not Quran), Allah allowed 2 of his books to be corrupted, why?

In addition there are other favours that God has done for us. For example God wants us to become closer to Him by enforcing muslims to fast 1 month a year. Fasting, in Islam, itself is an increasingly effective method of increasing piety and awareness of God, according to research as well as experience. The list of favours is endless.

fine

"As far as i know, in islam there is no assurance..even mohammad is quoted saying he doesn't know where he will end up..."

It is correct that Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) does not know the outcome of himself or others on Judgement day. Had he known the outcome, he would have been the Judge, but only God is the Judge, and only God makes the final decision.

fine as well.. and it proves my point..in Islam, no guarantee hence mercy is shown later and on condition.

I hope this makes things clear

thx i personally know this, maybe others are learning...appreciated

[inJESUS]

oh you are new Welcome !!