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  #1  
Old Mar 20, '06, 6:07 pm
Montie Claunch Montie Claunch is offline
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Default Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

It sounds like Judas was predested to go to hell, but that goes against Church teaching (I think). Could someone help me with reconciling the two? Thanks and God bless.
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  #2  
Old Mar 20, '06, 6:42 pm
Trevelyan Trevelyan is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

My understanding would be- no, Judas was definitely not predestined to hell, but that he freely chase to betray Christ. God, being all-knowing, knew this of Judas (as he knows every thing WE will or won't do). Judas may or may not have repented before his death - God certainly would have wanted him to (repent).
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  #3  
Old Mar 20, '06, 7:10 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montie Claunch
It sounds like Judas was predested to go to hell, but that goes against Church teaching (I think). Could someone help me with reconciling the two? Thanks and God bless.
Are you asking how to reconcile the Church teaching with your opinion?
The Church teaching is correct ALWAYS.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
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  #4  
Old Mar 20, '06, 7:22 pm
empacae empacae is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

God knowing us so well in His choice of 12 men one of them was going to betray Jesus. It could've been anyone, but today and forever we will know that Judas Iscariot the traitor. What a thing to be hung on ya for eternity, eh?

emp
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  #5  
Old Mar 20, '06, 7:27 pm
Liberian Liberian is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montie Claunch
It sounds like Judas was predested to go to hell, but that goes against Church teaching (I think). Could someone help me with reconciling the two? Thanks and God bless.
Montie,

Judas was not "predestined" to go to Hell in the sense that he freely chose to betray Jesus. On the other hand, God knew ahead of time that Judas would do this (seeing it from His eternity, outside of our space and time). But as C.S. Lewis said, watching somebody do something is not the same thing as making him do it.

- Liberian
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  #6  
Old Mar 20, '06, 8:18 pm
Montie Claunch Montie Claunch is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle
Are you asking how to reconcile the Church teaching with your opinion?
The Church teaching is correct ALWAYS.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
No, I am asking to reconcile my opinion with Church teaching. I have run across a stutter in my Logic cogs and am hoping that someone could correct it.
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  #7  
Old Mar 20, '06, 8:45 pm
AHapka AHapka is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

I don't think he was predestined. I do think that the Lord knew in his position everything he would do, and thus he unwittingly served the Lord even while selling him out (the Son of man goes...but woe to that man by whom he goes..). The chance to repent is always present while you are alive. Peter himself denied the Lord, but he repented afterwards. Judas could have repented after what he did.

I would love to think he repented. I know church teaching is that we cannot know with any certainty who is in hell. However, Jesus said it would have been better for him if he would never have been born. Doesn't sound like something you would say about someone going to Heaven. Personally, I think that means he went to hell. What do the theologians out there think??

Andy
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  #8  
Old Mar 20, '06, 9:00 pm
Montie Claunch Montie Claunch is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHapka
I would love to think he repented. I know church teaching is that we cannot know with any certainty who is in hell. However, Jesus said it would have been better for him if he would never have been born. Doesn't sound like something you would say about someone going to Heaven. Personally, I think that means he went to hell. What do the theologians out there think??

Andy
The "It would have been better for him if he would never have been born." line is what got me asking the question.
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  #9  
Old Mar 20, '06, 9:35 pm
havemercy havemercy is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

There is no affirmative statement from the Church with regards to Judas Iscariot's fate.
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  #10  
Old Mar 20, '06, 9:59 pm
John-the-Seeker John-the-Seeker is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

This question has been discussed at length in other threads.
The summary of the teachings on predestination have been clearly and correctly stated here.
Man chooses his own destination. It is not our sins that predestine us to Hell but rather our refusal to accept God's love, correction and forgiveness by being merciful to ourselves and forgiving ourselves as we forgive others, thus clearing the way for
God to forgive us.
Thus the presumed destination of Hell for Judas Iscariot was not predetermined by his act of treachery but rather by his refusal to believe in and accept the mercy and love of God.
Thus it would have been better for this man to not have been born due to his inability to love and forgive himself. Love is the greatest commandment of God.
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  #11  
Old Mar 21, '06, 7:15 am
ScottH ScottH is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

As a former Presbyterian, I'm usually afraid to enter into any forum discussion about any "predestination", but I'll give this one a shot.

If memory serves, I think the prophet Isaiah was the first to tell of the one who would betray the Son Of Man.

As for that being "predestiny" for Judas, I can't say. God has the distinct advantage of being able to thumb through the pages of the past, present, and future and know what we do.

So the question is this- because He knows what we will do, does that mean that the outcome wasn't our free will? (or in this case, the will of Judas.)

Does it necessarily mean that Judas had no choice, or that God knew exactly what Judas' choice would be since he knows the beginning and the end, future, past, and present?

These are questions that really can't be tackled by our limited knowledge. We are handcuffed by the concept of time, but that doesn't mean that God is.

I just happen to think that those who are sold out one way or another on this predestination debate tend to miss the big picture. (And, Montie, I'm not saying that you are one of those)- but I know from being a former Protestant that its a debate that often gets ugly and never can be settled, at least on this side of eternity.

I remember my old Presby church- there were hard feelings between Calvanistic Presbyterians (the Pro-Predestination folks) versus some Presbyterians of the Armenian persuasion (the free-will folks.) I found out that if I got involved, it only led to headaches. The thing is, scripturally, a case can be made for both predestination AND free-will. (Most Calvanists point to the passage where it is said that "God hated Esau before he was born".

The Armenians would then counter with "yeah, but if pre-destination is the only thing, why bother with the great commission if only the chosen will come forth anyway?"

There's no clear cut answer to predestination vs. free will, but there are tons of opinions and "best guesses".
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  #12  
Old Mar 21, '06, 8:02 am
VociMike VociMike is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montie Claunch
It sounds like Judas was predested to go to hell, but that goes against Church teaching (I think). Could someone help me with reconciling the two? Thanks and God bless.
What does it mean to be "predestined"? I think if you answer that you will be able to answer your question.
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  #13  
Old Mar 21, '06, 8:40 am
seagal seagal is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

Quote:
It sounds like Judas was predested to go to hell
You are assuming that Judas is, in fact, in hell. There is no way we can know that for sure in this life.

God is so good. He always gives us the chance to repent, right up until the moment of our death (remember the good thief). And as someone mentioned before, knowing what someone will do is not the same as making him/her do it. Even Mary was invited by God to be his mother. God didn't just use her for that mission, even though he had prepared her for just that from her conception.
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  #14  
Old Mar 21, '06, 11:22 am
BryPGuy89 BryPGuy89 is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montie Claunch
It sounds like Judas was predested to go to hell, but that goes against Church teaching (I think). Could someone help me with reconciling the two? Thanks and God bless.

You must have missed the whole predestination thread that was on here not to long ago. We hit basis on predestination in general and that it is part of Church teaching that God knows what one is going to do and what choices he will make with his free will. We have free will yes, but God, all powerful/ever knowing, knows our decisions.
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  #15  
Old Mar 21, '06, 11:24 am
BryPGuy89 BryPGuy89 is offline
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Default Re: Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seagal
You are assuming that Judas is, in fact, in hell. There is no way we can know that for sure in this life.

God is so good. He always gives us the chance to repent, right up until the moment of our death (remember the good thief). And as someone mentioned before, knowing what someone will do is not the same as making him/her do it. Even Mary was invited by God to be his mother. God didn't just use her for that mission, even though he had prepared her for just that from her conception.

Suicide my friend. Suicide, re-think your comment.
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