Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006 - Page 4

**fix** · #46 Apr 12, '06, 1:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncjohn

I totally agree with you fix that that is wrong. To the best of my knowledge, there is no one outside of the USCCB or the Vatican that has the aurhority to mandate a specific posture since the USCCB has specified that there is no prescribed posture and the Vatican delegated authority to regulate it to the conferrences of bishops. I'm sure part of the reasoning behind that is charitable concern for those who do not wish to participate for whatever reason. I have seen letters from bishops and priests urging consideration for others in these decisions but apparently that hasn't happened where you are.

I continue to pray for charity on the part of all on this issue and am saddened greatly to continually hear stories like yours.

Peace,

John,

I appreciate your words, but I see that the practice of hand holding, like some others, leads to a type of false unity and in general is a bad idea. Such a practice cannot help but become something that all feel they must comply with to be charitable.

I would think that is one reason why the Church forbids introducing things into the mass without proper authroity. The mass is not our private property. The topic always gets a big response because it touches on some fundamental issues that folks take very seriously.

Perhaps a partial solution would be for priests to speak up on this issue before mass and clarify what our obligations are to each other and what the Church says on the matter.

**jmcrae** · #47 Sep 8, '06, 3:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Keating

Rubrics are not like our criminal laws. The latter tell us what we're not supposed to do, not what we are to do. Rubrics work the other way around. It's sort of like the old stereotyped distinction between French law and German law:

In the French system, everything is permitted except that which is explicitly forbidden. In the German system, everything is forbidden except that which is explicitly permitted.

Of course, it's also good to keep in mind that the rubrics of the Mass are written in Italy, where even that which is explicitly forbidden is sometimes permitted.

The handholding thing is a minor issue - I have a friend who always grabs my hand during the Our Father, and it doesn't offend me. I am also not offended if no one grabs my hand. I see no point in being legalistic about it, one way or the other. As others have pointed out, there is nothing to forbid it.

St. Paul's command to do all things in an orderly manner (I Corinthians 14:40) is how we know not to stand on our heads, make noises like a donkey, or do other disruptive behaviour.

By the way, just a point of trivia - you may be interested to know that the 12-step program used by Alcoholics Anonymous is a secularized variation on one of St. Ignatius of Loyola's Spiritual Exercises. The hand-holding during the Our Father may well have come from St. Ignatius, originally.

**Karl Keating** · #48 Sep 8, '06, 3:24 pm

No, the hand holding seems to have come out of the charismatic movement. Had it come from St. Ignatius, we would have seen its use long before, say, 1975.

**jmcrae** · #49 Sep 8, '06, 3:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Keating

No, the hand holding seems to have come out of the charismatic movement. Had it come from St. Ignatius, we would have seen its use long before, say, 1975.

Yes, that's most probably right. In our area, it's the Philippinos who do this, and they also tend to be the ones who are most active in the Charismatic movement.

I consider it harmless. I led a Bible study for a group of Charismatic Philippinos about two years ago, and they were lots of fun to work with. It's probably the only class I've ever taught where not only did they all have excellent attendance, they also all had their homework done when they got there. When we did the Journeys of St. Paul, they even all had 3D maps and diagrams with little paper boats showing where he had to go by ship, and they even did a skit dramatization of St. Paul with the snake on the island of Malta complete with costumes and a rubber snake.

Catholic29 · #50 Sep 8, '06, 9:33 pm

Hand holding during the Our Father is more or less the norm at every Mass I have attended in my diocese, unless there is a flu bug going around. In fact I don't think I have ever been to a Mass where there wasn't hand holding. Although I know its not a norm in the GIRM, thats why I don't.

**Jennifer G.** · #51 Sep 9, '06, 7:02 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic29

Hand holding during the Our Father is more or less the norm at every Mass I have attended in my diocese, unless there is a flu bug going around. In fact I don't think I have ever been to a Mass where there wasn't hand holding. Although I know its not a norm in the GIRM, thats why I don't.

Surprising as it may be, at my Lutheran church, we never held hands during the Our Father.

qmvsimp · #52 Sep 9, '06, 8:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic29

Hand holding during the Our Father is more or less the norm at every Mass I have attended in my diocese, unless there is a flu bug going around. In fact I don't think I have ever been to a Mass where there wasn't hand holding. Although I know its not a norm in the GIRM, thats why I don't.

I love your pizza image. It made me very hungry for pizza. Pizza is truly one of God's gifts to man.

Catholic29 · #53 Sep 9, '06, 8:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jennifer G.

Surprising as it may be, at my Lutheran church, we never held hands during the Our Father.

Maybe because your Lutheran church never had a charismatic movement, Lutherans are known to be quite mainline or traditional as I'm sure you know, especially the Missouri Synod. Those that come by a more "charismatic" urge tend to head off to one of the more charismatic or pentecostal churches, even some so-called Catholics have been known to do that. Though I have been exposed to the charismatic movement (or the "charismatic renewal" as its also called) on many occasions even in my own parish, I have never been able to resonate with it.

Catholic29 · #54 Sep 9, '06, 8:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by qmvsimp

I love your pizza image. It made me very hungry for pizza. Pizza is truly one of God's gifts to man.

I'm concur completely. Give me the works with extra cheese any day.

Maureen Fiore · #55 Sep 11, '06, 4:50 am

I don't hold hands because I believe it is not right, but I would not condemn anyone who does hold hands during the Our Father. I come to mass to celebrate the Eurcharist with the rest of the community. I believe there is no need to show this (holding hands) because we are all united in the One Body and Blood of Christ. I don't hold hands and I don't want to be nudged by anyone to join in. I have never experienced that but of course I would extend just because of being an outcast.

qmvsimp · #56 Sep 11, '06, 8:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic29

I'm concur completely. Give me the works with extra cheese any day.

My favorite is to order the pizza "extra sauce, well done." The well done part is so the toppings actually cook. Too many pizza places just cook it so the cheese melts instead of letting the toppings cook. The extra sauce part is so the pizza doesn't dry out when they're cooking it well done. Try it sometime, it is so yummy that way.

Catholic29 · #57 Sep 11, '06, 10:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by qmvsimp

My favorite is to order the pizza "extra sauce, well done." The well done part is so the toppings actually cook. Too many pizza places just cook it so the cheese melts instead of letting the toppings cook. The extra sauce part is so the pizza doesn't dry out when they're cooking it well done. Try it sometime, it is so yummy that way.

Sounds delicious, I'll try that...

HEAVY HAND · #58 Jul 15, '07, 9:05 pm

Quote:

Hey, why don't you Supervisors follow the principle you otherwise so ardently admire, the separation of church and state? In other words, butt out. If you don't like the way the Catholic Church handles adoptions, make some other arrangement. Maybe the Metropolitan Community Church would be willing to take over ..

Ha; ha;

couldn't have said it better myself....

Like why don't these homosexuals get a clue and learn how to breed their own children.....rather than prey off the normal folks who KNOW HOW to produce children.??

**jmcrae** · #59 Jul 16, '07, 11:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by qmvsimp

My favorite is to order the pizza "extra sauce, well done." The well done part is so the toppings actually cook. Too many pizza places just cook it so the cheese melts instead of letting the toppings cook. The extra sauce part is so the pizza doesn't dry out when they're cooking it well done. Try it sometime, it is so yummy that way.

Yes, that's true. When we had a pizza parlour (many long moons ago) we precooked the meats ahead of time, and we did just cook the pizza long enough to melt the cheese - we left the vegetables warm but mostly raw because they actually taste better and retain their nutrients better like that.

Because the meats are cooked thoroughly ahead of time, they don't need a lot of extra cooking, either, when they go on the pizza.

A basic pizza should take about seven minutes to cook at 350 degrees Farenheit. If you make a deep dish pizza, that will take about double the time, or 14 minutes. A few seconds short or long will add or subtract crispiness. We had a timed cooking belt that travelled through the oven, where we could place the pizzas in at one end, raw, and they would come out the other end, cooked just right.