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  #1  
Old Sep 16, '06, 8:57 pm
Nagoda Nagoda is offline
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Default The Pope SHOULD Apologize

I know many of you will disagree with me on this, but please hear me out. I am a faithful and devout Catholic and I was saddened to hear the Pope's remarks and the reactions of Muslims worldwide and the Vatican's response.

The Holy Father should apologize.

Here's why:

I agree with the Pope that Holy War in the name fo religion can never be justified. However I found itsad that the Pope associated the word jihad with holy war in what seems to be an exclusive manner. Jihad does NOT mean holy war. Although a jihad can be a holy war, the word simply means struggle. I have many Muslim friends and they have told me time and time again that a jihad can simply be a daily struggle in their walk with God. I don't know if the Pope is aware of this or not, but I wish he had made this distinction. I also think the quote was a bad choice and ill informed on the part of the emperor who made it as well as the Pope who quoted it.

Mohammed did not bring evil. Yes, Islam did bring much evil in ITS NAME, it is not an evil religion. Almost all religions have done this. What faith ahs brought more evil and bloodshed with it than our Christian faith over the years in the name of God?

Yes, Mohammed fought wars, but most people fail to realize he was an extremely merciful war leader. Most people of the day would have just gone into a city and killed every thing in it. Mohammed deplored that, he only defeated his enemies, he did not slaughter them or destroy them completely.

Now, I find it strange that the Pope would talk about holy wars in relations to the Muslims and this quote from a 14th century emperor but make NO MENTION of the Crusades by the Church. If he is saying that war in the name fo faith is completely unnaceptable (and therefore we should not try to justify the Crusades) then he should have condemned the Church's actions in the Crusades as well as those of the Muslims in his lecture. The fact that he did not and did not say that both sides were wrong, is completely hypocritical of the Pope to me.

It should also be mentioned that his lecture cannot be declared infallible (if it can than its ridiculous that the Holy Father can have infallibility in declaring what another faith believes). I've seen some of you folks on this board calling the Muslims evil and a false religion. I've seen some fo you people say the Muslims cause all the problems in the world with the bombings and the violence. I have many muslim friends and they and I would say those extremists are NOT MUSLIMS AT ALL. They are radicals and are NOT good muslims. If Christians were to do the things the extremists did, would we consider them to be Christians still if they persisted? NO.

I've seen some of you people defend the Pope just because he's the Pope. He's human and can sin and make a mistake. We should defend the Pope because he's right, not try to find every which way to justify what he says just because he's the Pope. He's not infallible when it comes to what ever other religions believe, he's only infallible when it comes to the teachings about our own Church. To that end, the Pope has made a mistake.

I find it insulting and astonishing that the Holy Father has not apologized in person to the Muslim community but rather he came short of apologizing for his words and only did this through a Vatican official. The Muslim community told him they would accept nothing less than a personal apology. And yet the Vatican goes and does the one thing the Muslim community will not accept. Were they not listening?

Now I say the Pope was wrong. You folks will probably say he's right. Either way, whether he's right or wrong, IT DOESN'T MATTER. He should still apologize even if it turns out he's right. I'll explain it with an example.

My Mother and I fight a lot. Now I'll say things to her face that aren't very nice about her but they are true. They get her very hurt and offended. Eventually I suck things up and apologize for my words because I want to heal relations with my mother, no matter if I'm right or wrong.

This is what the Holy Father should do, even if he's right. He should just personally apologize if he wants to help heal the rift he's just opened up.

However, despite all of this, I applaud the Pope for wanting to open up dialogue between the Church and Muslims concerning jihad as holy war. But if the Pope has misunderstood Islam and its concepts, I agree with the Muslim leaders that he should educate himself on the matter. Either way, I know that God will forgive him IF he has sinned. And I pray that he will do the right things and apologize personally to the Muslim community.

Thank you all for listening to what I've had to say. God Bless.

-Mike
  #2  
Old Sep 16, '06, 9:10 pm
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slyboots slyboots is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

I totally disagree. The Holy Father did nothing wrong.
When I think of the things Muslim clerics say...it boggles the mind. But do I expect them to apologize. Of course not.
Muslim callifate anyone? The Islamic world does NOT want to live in peace with us. They want us to convert or die.
And yes we would like them to convert to Christianity. But we don't offer the the latter as an alternative when it comes to faith.

"And of those who say "We are Christians," have we accepted the covenant. But they too have forgotten what they were taught.wherefore we have stirred up enimity and hatred of them until the day of the Resurrection, and in the end God will tell them of their doings....Infidels now are they who say "Verily God is the Messiah the son of Ibn Maryam ( son of Mary).......from Surah V

“They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks…”Surah 4-89

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." Surah 3:19

Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." Surah 5:51

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." Surah 9:121
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  #3  
Old Sep 16, '06, 9:15 pm
Eden Eden is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

I'm sure that you are aware that Islam teaches its followers to lie to no-believers about their teachings when necessary.
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  #4  
Old Sep 16, '06, 9:22 pm
Cactus Cactus is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagoda View Post
even if he's right. He should just personally apologize if he wants to help heal the rift he's just opened up.

I applaud the Pope for wanting to open up dialogue between the Church and Muslims, . . . . I agree with the Muslim leaders that he should educate himself on the matter.

-Mike
To apologize when there's nothing to apologize for is dishonest.

This flap shows that dialogue with these people is not really possible. It seems that there's nothing that can be talked about without the Moslems taking offense.

To think Pope Benedict needs educating is laughable.
  #5  
Old Sep 16, '06, 9:28 pm
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

Nagoda - Do you believe it is a civilized response to a perceived "offense" to commit acts of violence and to make death threats?
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  #6  
Old Sep 16, '06, 9:29 pm
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagoda View Post

Mohammed did not bring evil. Yes, Islam did bring much evil in ITS NAME, it is not an evil religion. Almost all religions have done this. What faith ahs brought more evil and bloodshed with it than our Christian faith over the years in the name of God?
Absolute bilge.

Any religion that leads people to believe that there is any other way to the Kingdom of Heaven apart from Christ and His sacrificial and atoning death is false, evil, a deception of Satan. Any rudimentary comparison of Christianity and Islam would reveal in short order that the two are irreconcilable. Either one is true and the other false or vice versa. There's no middle ground when you're talking about revelation. If OUR reveleation is true, then their's is a deception. If theirs is true, then we are truly misguided and deceived. This isn't a matter of "you say toe-may-toe and I say toe-mah-toe." Now, we can try to find a way to live together in peace, but should we do it lying. Islam is a religion of peace? Please.

All the Holy Father did was point out a central truth of Islam: their faith CAN be spread by the sword. They may not force you to convert (IF you are a person of the Book, pagans, however, CAN be coerced or killed legitimately, if I'm not mistaken), but you pay a tax and live as second class citizens. Yes, Christians have acted violently in the past (the Crusades, btw, aren't the best example. There were some quite legitimate reasons for them), but violence isn't enshrined or endorsed by our faith.

It would have been far more honest for them to have just said,"Yeah, we're violent, so what?"
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  #7  
Old Sep 16, '06, 9:31 pm
Eden Eden is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV View Post
It would have been far more honest for them to have just said,"Yeah, we're violent, so what?"
Indeed. Like clockwork, the effigies and death threats were soon to follow.
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  #8  
Old Sep 16, '06, 9:42 pm
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the phoenix the phoenix is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

Having seen pictures on the internet of kidnap victims beheaded by their Muslim captors, I feel Pope Benedict XVI was completely justified in quoting the passage regarding the inhuman evil of Islam spread by the sword.

In the case of Eugene Armstrong, CNN has an article still posted on its website stating that just before the killing, one of the masked Islamic militants from Al-Zarqawi's group said, "We will apply God's law on them."

I'm still waiting for an apology for Eugene Armstrong's death.



http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ing/index.html

~~ the phoenix
  #9  
Old Sep 16, '06, 9:58 pm
jimmy jimmy is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

The pope was 100% correct in his statements.
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  #10  
Old Sep 16, '06, 10:14 pm
Jeanette L Jeanette L is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

Quote:
Originally Posted by the phoenix View Post
Having seen pictures on the internet of kidnap victims beheaded by their Muslim captors, I feel Pope Benedict XVI was completely justified in quoting the passage regarding the inhuman evil of Islam spread by the sword.

In the case of Eugene Armstrong, CNN has an article still posted on its website stating that just before the killing, one of the masked Islamic militants from Al-Zarqawi's group said, "We will apply God's law on them."

I'm still waiting for an apology for Eugene Armstrong's death.



http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ing/index.html

~~ the phoenix






Excellent post. We have very short memories, don't we?
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  #11  
Old Sep 16, '06, 10:21 pm
kevinfraser kevinfraser is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagoda View Post
The Holy Father should apologize.
Sadly, I must inform you that you have been deeply subverted in your understanding of the nature and purpose of the violence in Islam. The Holy Father displayed its' evil.

Ironically, Oriana Fallacci, whose father fought Mussolini, and while imperfect as we all are, and who yet remained until her death an outspoken and laser-guided missile against the evil embedded in Islam despite a vilification by the leftist West, which in light of this development is now falling over themselvesw to pay her tribute -- lying cowards all.

While many disagreed with the evil within her life including deeply professed atheism, she disagreed with the evil within Islam. She acquired a personal audience with our HF last summer, and I have read she was reconciled with the Church in her last hours, Thanks be to God.

I do not post this because I agree with all of her philosophy. I disagree with anything our Holy Mother Church does. Please read it in the knowledge of the light of her final reconciliation, and Jesus, Oriana.

Please forgive the add-on post:
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  #12  
Old Sep 16, '06, 10:30 pm
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hosemonkey hosemonkey is offline
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Thumbs down Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

Islam is a false, violent and backward religion. Islam is the sworn enemy of Christ and His Church. The Holy Father is right, thank God that he has the courage NOT to be politically correct. Get over it. Moslems will use any excuse to simply act crazy. It is time that the Christian world recognizes that it is in great danger and acts in it's own defense.
  #13  
Old Sep 16, '06, 10:35 pm
kevinfraser kevinfraser is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

This is why our Holy Father has spoken against Islam, from Oriana Fallaci's The Rage and Pride.

DISCLAIMER: I personaly disagree with all forms of sinfulness Holy Mother Church prohibits.

Do not read this post if you wish to remain ignorant of the depth of evil the Holy Father indicated. This is merely a modern instance. You may weep from your soul after reading this. If so, then Oriana will have gotten your attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriana Fallaci's The Rage and Pride
"I am not speaking, obviously, to the laughing hyenas who enjoy seeing images of the wreckage and snicker good–it–serves–the–Americans–right. I am speaking to those who, though not stupid or evil, are wallowing in prudence and doubt. And to them I say: "Wake up, people. Wake up!!" Intimidated as you are by your fear of going against the current—that is, appearing racist (a word which is entirely inapt as we are speaking not about a race but about a religion)—you don’t understand or don’t want to understand that a reverse–Crusade is in progress. Accustomed as you are to the double–cross, blinded as you are by myopia, you don’t understand or don’t want to understand that a war of religion is in progress. Desired and declared by a fringe of that religion, perhaps, but a war of religion nonetheless. A war which they call Jihad. Holy War. A war that might not seek to conquer our territory, but that certainly seeks to conquer our souls. That seeks the disappearance of our freedom and our civilization. That seeks to annihilate our way of living and dying, our way of praying or not praying, our way of eating and drinking and dressing and entertaining and informing ourselves. You don’t understand or don’t want to understand that if we don’t oppose them, if we don’t defend ourselves, if we don’t fight, the Jihad will win. And it will destroy the world that for better or worse we’ve managed to build, to change, to improve, to render a little more intelligent, that is to say, less bigoted—or even not bigoted at all. And with that it will destroy our culture, our art, our science, our morals, our values, our pleasures...[oath]! Don’t you realize that the Osama Bin Ladens feel authorized to kill you and your children because you drink wine or beer, because you don’t wear your beard long or a chador, because you go to the theater or the movies, because you listen to music and sing pop songs, because you dance in discos or at home, because you watch TV, wear miniskirts or short–shorts, because you go [inappropriate] to the beach or the pool, because you [inappropriate] when you want [inappropriate]? Don’t you even care about that, you fools? I am an atheist, thank God. And I have no intention of letting myself be killed for it."

"To make you cry I’ll tell you about the twelve young impure men I saw executed at Dacca at the end of the Bangladesh war. They executed them on the field of Dacca stadium, with bayonet blows to the torso or abdomen, in the presence of twenty thousand faithful who applauded in the name of God from the bleachers. They thundered "Allah akbar, Allah akbar." Yes, I know: the ancient Romans, those ancient Romans of whom my culture is so proud, entertained themselves in the Coliseum by watching the deaths of Christians fed to the lions. I know, I know: in every country of Europe the Christians, those Christians whose contribution to the History of Thought I recognize despite my atheism, entertained themselves by watching the burning of heretics. But a lot of time has passed since then, we have become a little more civilized, and even the sons of Allah ought to have figured out by now that certain things are just not done. After the twelve impure young men they killed a little boy who had thrown himself at the executioners to save his brother who had been condemned to death. They smashed his head with their combat boots. And if you don’t believe it, well, reread my report or the reports of the French and German journalists who, horrified as I was, were there with me. Or better: look at the photographs that one of them took. Anyway this isn’t even what I want to underline. It’s that, at the conclusion of the slaughter, the twenty thousand faithful (many of whom were women) left the bleachers and went down on the field. Not as a disorganized mob, no. In an orderly manner, with solemnity. They slowly formed a line and, again in the name of God, walked over the cadavers. All the while thundering Allah–akbar, Allah–akbar. They destroyed them like the Twin Towers of New York. They reduced them to a bleeding carpet of smashed bones."
We are either with our Holy Father--the Vicar of Christ-- in ALL matters of faith and morals, or we are against Him. There is no between. Holy Virgin Mother of God, please prohibit this horror over which you weep the tears of His Blood for the loss of all we, your "little ones," as your Mother's heart has called us, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
  #14  
Old Sep 16, '06, 10:43 pm
David_Paul David_Paul is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagoda View Post
I agree with the Pope that Holy War in the name fo religion can never be justified. However I found itsad that the Pope associated the word jihad with holy war in what seems to be an exclusive manner. Jihad does NOT mean holy war. Although a jihad can be a holy war, the word simply means struggle. I have many Muslim friends and they have told me time and time again that a jihad can simply be a daily struggle in their walk with God. I don't know if the Pope is aware of this or not, but I wish he had made this distinction . . .
He didn't make the distinction because it does mean Holy War. Walter Brandmüller, president of the Pontifical Committee for Historical Sciences, presented a paper at the Pontifical Lateran University last December in which he said:
Quote:
It therefore comes as no surprise that the use of force occupies a central place in Islamic tradition, as witnessed by the frequent use of the word “jihad” in many texts. Although some scholars, especially Western ones, maintain that jihad does not necessarily mean war, but instead a spiritual struggle and interior effort, Samir Khalil Samir again clarifies that the use of this term in Islamic tradition – including its usage today – is essentially uniform, indicating warfare in the name of God to defend Islam, which is an obligation for all adult Muslim males. Those who maintain that understanding jihad as a holy war constitutes a sort of deviation from the true Islamic tradition are therefore not telling the truth . . .'
Source: From Lepanto to Baghdad, There’s a Road that Leads through Rome

The conference at which Brandmüller presented the paper above was sponsored by cardinal secretary of state Angelo Sodano. The grand chancellor of the university where it was presented is Camillo Ruini--the Pope's vicar.
  #15  
Old Sep 17, '06, 1:02 am
Liberalsaved Liberalsaved is offline
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Default Re: The Pope SHOULD Apologize

Well said. I was considering bringing up the issue of why the Pope is somehow right about everything but chose not to. However, I agree that being Pope doesn't make him endlessly correct. He could say window are made of cotton, it wouldn't make it correct.

And on the subject of Islam; radical Islam is a corruption of the original faith. It's the same as if a section of Christianity heavily beleiving in the teachings of Jack Chick or Fred Phelps suddenly became powerful and engulfed the whole; just because it has prominence doesn't mean you can peg every Muslim as being the exact same.
Ultimately, many Christians want to beleive all Muslim is evil. To this end, they go so far as to take modern day events and force them to fit in with ancient Muslim teachings. Someone could use God drowning the Egyptians as proof that Christians should drown non-beleivers, but a lot of Christians would sure throw a hissy fit if they did. Yet somehow it's perfectly all right to take a truly enlightened view toward warfare from centuries ago, apply it to people who hijack planes, and say "They're one and the same!"
It is, in fact, a pretty sickening display of willful dishonesty and re-writing of history to support your opinions.
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